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Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

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Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#921

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a terrible example. Most people do not want to murder, even when very angry. You don't need laws to make people not murder. The laws are for what to do when people do. No matter how universal an attribute is it'll never be 100%. Besides, you'll notice the murder rate is highly localized and associated with economic opportunities. You know why talking about gay people _is_ a good example? Because you probably…

Yeah imo we are talking less about shame in particular about cultural norms. A country like Japan is largely homogenous for good or for ill and their rate of immigration is low so newcomers assimilate. The US is much more heterogenous, especially in large metros. There is subsequently less overlap in cultural norms. That comes with both benefits and downsides such as topics like drugs and gay marriage and many more.…

Here's the problem though. Shit is complicated.

Trying to turn this into:

- Harsh punishments stop crime: doesn't work because we've tried it for thousands of years and we even tried it in the 90's and no credible paper says that's the reason for the subsequent decrease.

- Cultural homogeneity is the only solution so west is fucked: is just a non-starter explanation and doesn't lead anywhere to solving the issue. It is also stopping shy of actually explaining anything. If homogeneity were "the answer", then it either it is just a confounder or the foreigners are doing vastly more crime than the citizens.

I'd suggest that actually the underlying issue at hand is that everyone is trying to get simple easy to understand answers. That this idiotic belief that the world is simple is why we're grinding so many gears. Nearly nothing in the modern world is simple. We've solved those problems a long time ago. We had thousands of years to work on these and it should make sense that the simple problems got solved first.

What's going on is now people's propensity to both care too much and too little is harming us to such a degree that it makes problems too difficult to solve. People care enough about these problems to make strong statements and virulently fight one another. But at the same time they don't care enough to look into the problem and try to understand any nuance or depth to it. When they end up doing so they often turn to conspiracy which ends up being another easy explanation such as "wizards did it." The classic "if it weren't for 'them' then everything would be solved." Which is closer to this homogeneity argument, since Japan has a lot of problems (as well as good). It is easy to romanticize places. The clique works both ways: the grass is always greener can be about your neighbor's lawn compared to yours or the other way around. Seemingly paradoxically they can both be believed by the same person. If only the world were that simple, where at least such a claim is measurable.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#922
Of course it hasn't reduced addiction. The quote from TFA explains it best: "If you take away the criminal-justice system as a pathway that gets people into treatment, you need to think about what is going to replace it."

That doesn't mean that decriminalization is bad, it means you can't ignore public health. Seems uniquely American to assume that just leaving addicted people alone without appropriate healthcare options is going to reduce addiction.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#923
post #520

The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame to the point where it holds nearly no cultural power. Shame is an important aspect of behaviour moderation, a negative emotion usefully experienced when doing something that breaks the social contract. Devaluing shame instad of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed has cost us a critical tool for self moderation and has created…

I can't say I agree. The answer to debilitating addiction isn't to make someone feel even worse about it (to the extent they don't already feel terrible). It's to provide meaningful support to get out of addiction and back to the life the person wishes they could have. Shame is fatal to dignity and self-acceptance. It has no place in public health.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#924

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might it not be smart to prevent those crimes from happening by preventing drug use/abuse in the first place?

A precrime division doesn't belong in any law enforcement agency.

Yeah, why prevent anything bad from happening, LOL

BTW, if it's a crime to use certain drugs, and you use those drugs and are arrested, and that arrest prevents further crimes, this was NOT an example of "pre-crime". You committed a crime. You used illegal drugs.

"Pre-crime" is not an accurate description of what I'm talking about.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#925

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an important point. While drugs are decriminalized, crimes such as theft are not. Pro-drug decriminalization people often argue that stuff like theft is still illegal. However, there are so many drug-related thefts that our particular district attorney is unwilling to prosecute them. As a result, law enforcement won't even take them to jail, let alone show up, most of the time. Typically, you file a self-repo…

Every retail store with a 20 mile radius of Portland has put theft deterrent devices on even the most basic items. Home depot locks up almost everything other than lumber now because theft is so prolific. It's frustrating for your average joe trying to shop anymore. Multnomah DA is an a$$hole and moron...he doesn't care about the people he is supposed to serve.

Same down south. Our DA seems more concerned with protecting criminal rights than fighting crime.

Edit: Turns out the DA isn't pursuing more minor crimes, such as property crimes, reportedly due to a mass egress of prosecutors for more high-paying jobs. Nonetheless, a bad mix of realities.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#926
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly the prohibition on drugs is not preventing those people from accessing them. Obviously rehabilitation would be ideal. But all else being equal, it would be better if the drugs were cheaper and safer.

It's not so hard to believe that lack of access prevents some from getting hooked.

Hard drugs don't need to be made available to non-addicts just because the sale is legalized and formalized.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#927
post #853

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a terrible example. Most people do not want to murder, even when very angry. You don't need laws to make people not murder. The laws are for what to do when people do. No matter how universal an attribute is it'll never be 100%. Besides, you'll notice the murder rate is highly localized and associated with economic opportunities. You know why talking about gay people _is_ a good example? Because you probably…

You’re either too young to remember or creating a non-existent history of what life was like before same-sex marriage was legalized. This is not a comment on anything to do with gay rights but more just a matter of fact: pre-Obergefell life was VERY similar to life today. Gay people still lived together, still went on dates, and held hands. They weren’t run out of town for being gay. There wasn’t rampant homophobia e…

> Gay people still lived together, still went on dates, and held hands. They weren’t run out of town for being gay.

Are you sure __YOU__ aren't the one creating a non-existent history? Talk about calling the kettle black.

Either you've forgotten the past or more likely were just never exposed to those things. It is important to remember that our lives are not always identical to others, even those in close proximity.

I am definitely old enough to: remember my gay cousin having to hide any notion of his sexuality, and trying to deny it himself; the secret shame my aunt and uncle had for having a gay kid, never talking about it and doubling down on religion; the protests in 2008 where people said that gays had all the same rights but it was about the "sanctity of marriage," and how a "no" meant that they were going to teach children gay sex in schools; I'm old enough to remember it being a big deal that our president got a blowjob from someone that wasn't his wife, that such a shameful act was enough to impeach him, where saying "I didn't inhale" was ghastly let alone something like "grab 'em by the pussy"; I'm old enough to remember getting smog poisoning; I'm old enough to remember waking up early for cartoons, knowing where my friends are by finding the pile of bikes, and having the dad answer the phone when I was calling to ask a girl on a date.

Yes, it was that prop 8, and I did grow up in California. Not a rural part, all this happened in Orange and LA county. This isn't an uncommon thing.

But to catch you up on some things, here's some other things you might not have experienced. A little over 5 years ago I dated a black girl (I'm white) in a major Southern city and we both got looks, comments, and overall different treatment, especially when we weren't out with a group of white friends. This is something I, or her, didn't realize was as bad until it happened. A few years back (on the west coast), when I dated a South Asian girl I got comments asking why I don't date a "real" Asian, "one of the better ones", accused of liking submissive women (clearly they never met an Asian woman), being a colonizer, and other such comments. I had "shame" to tell my parents about the fact that I'm currently dating a Korean woman because I get accused of having "yellow fever," since they just ignore all the other women I've ever dated. The white women, the Latina women, or others I've chased or had crushes on (which btw, still got racist comments for any non-white girl). That I was actually introduced and set up to those last two girls rather than actively seeking them out. That this is just how the dice fell and it is probably unsurprising given that I'm in grad school in a west coast city. That I still get some of the same comments as before, that there's pressure on her for not dating a Korean, Asian men (even non-Korean) give me comments about how I'll never fit in and heavily imply only Asians should date Asians. Or again how people think I want to just dominate this woman, who is undeniably fierce and independent. All this still fucking exists.

You're not wrong about people virtual signaling. It annoys the fuck out of me too. You may notice some of those comments above aren't things a conservative would say... But you're swinging the pendulum in the other direction rather than dampening it. That's not any better. You can call out hypocrisy without perpetuating a fictitious dichotomy. By the very nature of only complaining about white liberal women you actively are perpetuating this dichotomy. Taking us further down the rabbit hole. I'm sorry, the world is complicated and it wouldn't be better if you just made all the liberals disappear (and similarly wouldn't be better if you made all the conservatives disappear). It's not a bunch of wizards lording over, pulling magic strings in the sky, it is because the world is exceptionally complex and we're all fucking idiots barely able to comprehend our small little corner.

To also help, let me explain the differences between conservative and liberal racism, with an example from my Muslim friend: Liberal racists randomly walk up to her and tell her how brave she is for wearing her hijab, conservative racists tell he to go back to where she came from. No, neither is great, but I bet you can tell one is preferred over the other. The real truth of the matter is, is that a lot of people are the same, they just ascribe to different tribes. They sing the same songs and dance the same dance, but pretend they're fundamentally different because it is in a different key. I have a lot to say about all this, but I don't want to start my morning angry.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#928
post #520

The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame to the point where it holds nearly no cultural power. Shame is an important aspect of behaviour moderation, a negative emotion usefully experienced when doing something that breaks the social contract. Devaluing shame instad of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed has cost us a critical tool for self moderation and has created…

Interesting. I feel the exact opposite about shame. It's far too prevalent and people make too many choices based on what they think others will perceive

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#929
The problem as summarized by the photo isn't drugs. The problem everywhere -- not just in Oregon -- is Human Overpopulation. The severity of it in Oregon has increased because of populations spilling over from elsewhere, most notably California. Sadly, Portland is finally a large city, thus it has the same issues all other large cities have. This overall problem of Human Overpopulation which is the root cause of pretty much every other problem in the entire world (climate change, wealth gap, dwindling resources, etc) is exacerbated by certain politicians opposing birth control.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#930

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a terrible example. Most people do not want to murder, even when very angry. You don't need laws to make people not murder. The laws are for what to do when people do. No matter how universal an attribute is it'll never be 100%. Besides, you'll notice the murder rate is highly localized and associated with economic opportunities. You know why talking about gay people _is_ a good example? Because you probably…

Most people do want to murder when very angry, at least for the definition of very angry that I'm familiar with. The problem is that our societies drive more and more people to be very angry.

You want to murder people? Remind me to stay away from you. Are you sure "most" is the correct qualifier or are you looking for "a lot." Those are very different. If you have 100 million people, most means that more than 50 people want to murder and that means there are some VERY effective counter measures out there. But with the same population, if 0.1% of people want to murder, you still got 100k murderers out there, which is still "a lot" in the total sense despite not being in the proportional. Make sure to not confuse these two things, it is extremely important.
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