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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#921

Post by MacsHeadroom »

serf wrote: post #859
koprulusector wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discov…

>That contrasts sharply with 4chan’s demographics and motivations. I don’t think that anyone will look back with fondness or positivity toward a bunch of closeted homophobic, racist, sexist, emotionally and mentally stunted incels circle jerking themselves into a froth over who’s the edgiest edge lord. not to defend 4chan, but this kind of categorical and imprecise summarization of a group of people is strongly simil…

We should defend 4chan. /LGBT/ has been one of the most active boards there for over a decade. Calling /lit/ emotionally and mentally stunted is ridiculous. /fit/ is one of the most egalitarian venues on the internet.

People in this thread are reducing all of 4chan to a board meant not to be taken seriously (/b/) and a containment board intended to keep far-right conservative discussions off of other boards (/pol/). Then they're somehow contorting the offensiveness of what goes on at those two boards as evidence that they can't be counter-cultural because "true" counter-culture apparently can't be offensive?

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#922

Post by lmm »

Clubber wrote: post #906
Izkata wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMO Incels tend to be people who would, at the first chance, jump at the opportunity to become sexually active. It's literally in the name: involuntary celibate

>It's literally in the name: involuntary celibate I've always taken issue with that term. Any guy who bathes, doesn't say mean things, tries to make himself more attractive, doesn't consider a woman unattractive because she isn't an 8+, and learns to strike up a conversation with the opposite sex will find someone sooner or later. I don't know much about them, but people presented as incels generally seem unwilling t…

> Any guy who bathes, doesn't say mean things, tries to make himself more attractive, doesn't consider a woman unattractive because she isn't an 8+, and learns to strike up a conversation with the opposite sex will find someone sooner or later.

And if he doesn't, clearly it must be because he isn't trying hard enough amirite?

There are plenty of guys out there who listen to what they're being told (which is hard, because there's a lot of contradictions), try as hard as they can, and yet can't find anyone.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#923

Post by lmm »

api wrote: post #290
xwolfi wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These decline stories are universal, and probably no more true than 400 years ago: I am French and live in Hong Kong, do you think decline is not what everyone is talking about in BOTH places ? What is a place not in decline in the eyes of its inhabitants ? It says more about how we view the past than how the present is: we remember only the glorious good times, and forget nobody could read 200 years ago, or nobody c…

I have felt like a contrarian for a while for not thinking the US (or the West generally) is in decline. Here’s a random example: https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/nj3z7ieVrCcgyQkq6myNZ.jpg Doesn’t look like decline to me. I could cite dozens more examples and not just around technology. Russia is a good example of a nation in decline: hemorrhaging young people, horrible corruption, cynicism, delusional leaders, and…

> Here’s a random example:

Hardly "random".

> hemorrhaging young people, horrible corruption, cynicism, delusional leaders, and the use of imperial war and dramatic ideology to try to paper over it all.

So which of those is missing from the US? I see fewer and fewer young people, the corruption may not be at the level of handing over banknotes but the distrust is just as real, and everything else on your list is much th esame.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#924

Post by gd1 »

throwaway4aday wrote: post #145
jl6 wrote: post #76

Personally I think the word “counterculture” should be retired, as we no longer live in monocultural societies. We no longer gather round any shared fireplace. For a counterculture to meaningfully exist, it has to be somehow discordant with a dominant narrative - but there is no dominant narrative any more. The west is not ruled by the left or the right or the church or the state. We are all fragmenting off into echo…

Speaking of bubbles, it seems like you're in a pretty big one. To speak directly to your comment. The shared fireplace is now composed of streaming services, news, and social media with its heavily censored content. There is a very strong dominant narrative in society right now, in the US it is somewhat two pronged but those tines are joined at the handle. The Western leaders all subscribe to the same clubs and seem…

[dead]

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#925

Post by ColonelPhantom »

rootusrootus wrote: post #404
phkahler wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> LGBTQ is a minority Nope. The number of letters keeps increasing as more people are brought in. In schools these days it's trendy to be anything but straight.

> The number of letters keeps increasing Indeed, I now hear acquaintances on the right referring to them derisively as the 'alphabet mafia.' I wonder if maybe it's gotten meaningless when there are so many letters. Sometimes I see "+" used instead, after the first few letters. In that case, do the members of the groups that come after feel marginalized compared to the big ones that make up the first few letters? And…

> Indeed, I now hear acquaintances on the right referring to them derisively as the 'alphabet mafia.' I wonder if maybe it's gotten meaningless when there are so many letters.

Is Christianity also meaningless then? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denomination...

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#926

Post by undersuit »

lmm wrote: post #912
undersuit wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would most likely treat it as a good opportunity to say nothing on the subject. You know you can do this with trans people too. Or do they not have names?

That's not considered enough in some environments.

That's a questionable claim.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#927

Post by undersuit »

bongle wrote: post #885
irrational wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a minority, but if I go into work and announce that I am trans and will now be transitioning and my name is now X, people will fall all over themselves be supportive and congratulating me. It literally happened recently when Chris became Christina at my work. But, if I come in and announce that I have decided to become Catholic or Evangelical or Mormon there will be a lot of awkward silence with maybe some "oka…

In a society that actually respected women, people would be falling over themselves to call out his misogynistic delusion that being a woman can amount to a thought in a man's head. But sadly not. That's male privilege for you.

Oh, look a TERF wandered in from Twitter.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#928

Post by undersuit »

brianmurphy wrote: post #775
undersuit wrote: post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brandon was promoting the dominant culture by suppressing others.

Promoting the dominant culture doesn't get you fired from your job. The dominant culture took him out.

Brendan Eich doesn't say he was fired. https://brendaneich.com/2014/04/the-next-mission/

Mozilla doesn't say he was fired. https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/faq-on-ceo-resignation/

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#929

Post by undersuit »

ticviking wrote: post #861
undersuit wrote: post #752

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've spent a good amount of time and effort distancing myself from religion and specifically Christianity for about 20 years. So 0.

Before making such an effort in thought were you even aware of such a subculture? I get why you might not want to participate in the those things but the point that Trads as a counterculture phenomenon are new and distinct from the previous mainline Protestant or evangelical Christian cultural movements.

How are Trads a new counter culture when they range in age from 16 to 85?

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#930

Post by tablespoon »

mshake2 wrote: post #897
bglazer wrote: post #895

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I’m not. The culture of many, many Americans is so anti-LGBTQ that they’ll disown their family. Thats their culture! There is not one American culture, social conservatism is a very common culture in America, and being LGBTQ is counter to that culture. Ergo LGBTQ culture is counterculture.

That's not what counterculture is. Counterculture is counter the mainstream culture. Which is more mainstream in the US, (ie, in media, art, products, government, businesses, etc): suppressing LGBTQ people or giving LGBTQ people a platform? It's pretty obvious if you're being honest. You appear to be suggesting that it counts for nothing because some LGBTQ people get disowned by some conservative or religious people.

> That's not what counterculture is. Counterculture is counter the mainstream culture. Which is more mainstream in the US, (ie, in media, art, products, government, businesses, etc): suppressing LGBTQ people or giving LGBTQ people a platform? It's pretty obvious if you're being honest. You appear to be suggesting that it counts for nothing because some LGBTQ people get disowned by some conservative or religious people.

It could also be their outdated picture of "mainstream" culture is a fossil embedded in the self-justifications of the current mainstream culture.

Some people will forever pretend current-year is the 1950s, because, not because they want to live in the 50s, but because they see themselves as the people who are abolishing it.

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