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Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

nytimes.com

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Re: Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

#921

Post by steve_adams_86 »

TEP_Kim_Il_Sung wrote: post #904
steve_adams_86 wrote: post #854

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you dig a little deeper you’ll find that methylcellulose has some interesting culinary properties, making it well suited to adding structure and firm texture to soft foods. When mixed with water it transforms into a firm gel after heating, or it can be used to create extremely resilient emulsifications. It’s practically flavourless, so it works well. I’m not convinced it passes through the GI tract with no impact…

Thank you for your eloquent and well reasoned refutation! Getting early 90s internet vibes, where prople actually typed out their disagreement in an informative way instead of just downvoting.

I take that as a huge compliment! I find myself dreaming of Old Internet quite often these days, so thank you very much. Maybe we can restore the old ways one comment at a time.

Re: Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

#922

Post by boppo1 »

ses1984 wrote: post #766
boppo1 wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the companies can get their products to taste about the same as meat, and have about the same nutritional value, while being cheaper, we can eliminate enormous amounts of habitual meat consumption. Habitual meat eater here. I will never ever trust these products to be right for my body the way meat is. Humans haven’t nailed it in the past with heavily processed foods, why would it suddenly work now? I understand…

No added sugar peanut butter is not really a high quality protein source that can substitute for meat, not to mention there are doubts about the health of seed oils (peanuts may or may not be included here) and high omega 6.

You're right, but I can put up with eating a lot of it for long periods on end and it gets me through. I'm open to other suggestions of similar price/effort/tastiness with a better protein & nutrition profile. As long as it's not crazy processed.

Re: Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

#923

Post by empyrrhicist »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #807
empyrrhicist wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Complete opposite experience on both counts, anecdotally. I've been vegetarian for years, and the texture of meat (and substitutes) creeps me out. My town has like 10 restaurants that dropped their veggie burgers for beyond/impossible.

Fake meat probably isn't for vegetarians. It's for meat eaters who are interested in "meatless mondays" or the like.

Exactly, and it displaced veggie options in my area.

Re: Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

#924

Post by henrikschroder »

friend_and_foe wrote: post #379
henrikschroder wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing is, vegetarian food is incredible without needing to taste like meat. You are not the target group for these products! The whole point of these products is to replace meat for habitual meat eaters. If the companies can get their products to taste about the same as meat, and have about the same nutritional value, while being cheaper , we can eliminate enormous amounts of habitual meat consumption. That's t…

So the target market for these products is people that want to eat real meat and actively seek it out? And they're catering to them by... replacing existing vegetarian options? They must not have read your comment. Sounds like a bad market fit. The number of people who eat meat and don't care if their meat is made of meat has got to be in the 7 figure range worldwide. The number of people that don't eat meat and want…

> So the target market for these products is people that want to eat real meat

No!!!

The target market is habitual meat eaters. People who grab a hot dog as a snack. Eat a burger for lunch. Make pasta bolognese for dinner. Get chicken nuggets for the kids.

The vast majority of meat consumption is done without a strong craving for meat. People are just buying and eating dishes they like. Asking that all of these people consciously substitute those meals with vegetarian meals is not going to happen in a million years.

But if the cheapest hot dog is fake meat, and taste the same, they'll switch. If the cheapest burger is fake meat, and taste the same, they'll switch.

These products will never replace a steak dinner.

Re: Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

#925

Post by nearbuy »

jjcm wrote: post #136

I'm a meat eater, but am a big fan of fake meats - to the point where I prefer them in some situations. Overall I'm not a huge fan of Beyond Meat. While it does feel closer in taste to beef than impossible burgers, I heavily prefer the taste of impossible burgers to beyond. Impossible burgers have a stronger umami taste and tend to add to the experience. Beyond kinda just tastes like lower end beef to me. This means…

> (the US spends $38 billion in subsidies - about $114 per person)

I think that number is basically made up. It comes from a chain of references by activists and lobbyists (against meat and dairy subsidies) who are basically playing a game of broken telephone with statistics.

AIER cites a Columbia SIPA article, which cites the book Meatonomics. Meatonomics is written by a lawyer who advocates against meat and dairy and seems to have synthesized the number by adding numbers from several sources. He cites an article by an anti-meat/dairy law firm which estimates dairy subsidies at $19 billion. (Meatononics includes dairy subsidies in the $38 billion figure.)

But those dairy subsidies aren't from payments to dairy farmers. They're looking at indirect subsidies, the largest of which is food stamps and other nutritional assistance programs. They estimate that Americans spend about 11% of their food budget on dairy products and based on that they estimate the amount of food stamp money that goes to dairy farmers.

tl;dr: The number is a rough estimate based largely on the government giving poor people food stamps and people choosing to spend some of that on meat and dairy. The numbers are also from advocacy groups, not peer reviewed journals.

Re: Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

#926

Post by henrikschroder »

yreg wrote: post #630
friend_and_foe wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the target market for these products is people that want to eat real meat and actively seek it out? And they're catering to them by... replacing existing vegetarian options? They must not have read your comment. Sounds like a bad market fit. The number of people who eat meat and don't care if their meat is made of meat has got to be in the 7 figure range worldwide. The number of people that don't eat meat and want…

There are three kinds of products for three groups of customers. - People who don't like the taste of meat -> traditional veggie patties - People who like the taste of meat but are open to eating less of it -> beyond meat, etc. - People who like the taste of meat and want to eat meat -> meat I myself fall into the second group.

Yes, exactly! And I think most people fall into the second group for a majority of their meals.

Re: Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

#927

Post by pvaldes »

Ma8ee wrote: post #565
pvaldes wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It sounds like you are suggesting non-animal agriculture kills or displaces more animals than animal agriculture. Is exactly what happens. Without cattle there is not the need of meadows anymore. Not wildflowers, butterflies, hedgehogs, molluscs or birds. Soy fields have a biodiversity composed of: Soy. Period.

How much of the meat we consume do you really think are grazing in meadows? Even most the grass feed cows are raised in fields that used to be rain forests in Brazil. However you turn it, it’s impossible to claim that cattle raising is a net gain for biodiversity.

You are moving the goalposts. The parent post was comparing non-animal agriculture with animal agriculture in terms of biodiversity. I'll copy it here for you.

> It sounds like you are suggesting non-animal agriculture kills or displaces more animals than animal agriculture.

Animal agriculture is better for biodiversity than crop monocultures. I understand that the truth can be shocking for some people, but there are dozens of ecological studies pointing to the environmental value of pastures and meadows, specially as ecotones.

As the initial plan to demonize cattle failed, now you are silently replacing "non-animal agriculture" by "rainforests" as a straw man to attack the original claim. Sorry, but this was not the point that we were discussing.

"Non-animal agriculture", also known as "Agriculture", has replaced happily as many rainforest hectares as cattle, if not more. Take a look to the fate of Indonesian rainforests

Re: Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

#928

Post by mirker »

corobo wrote: post #652
boppo1 wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the companies can get their products to taste about the same as meat, and have about the same nutritional value, while being cheaper, we can eliminate enormous amounts of habitual meat consumption. Habitual meat eater here. I will never ever trust these products to be right for my body the way meat is. Humans haven’t nailed it in the past with heavily processed foods, why would it suddenly work now? I understand…

It's not like meat is free from controversy, to play devil's advocate a little. We had beef that turned out to be horse for a moment in the UK. Not to mention mad cow disease and similar issues. What risks are you thinking of with plant based or lab grown? If anything it seems the lab environment would catch anything significant before it got out of the building. I'm not arguing with you, honestly curious. I've not t…

Thought: If your beef is horse meat from a bad supply chain, your vegetarian burger may also be horse meat.

Re: Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

#929

Post by henrikschroder »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #702
henrikschroder wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing is, vegetarian food is incredible without needing to taste like meat. You are not the target group for these products! The whole point of these products is to replace meat for habitual meat eaters. If the companies can get their products to taste about the same as meat, and have about the same nutritional value, while being cheaper , we can eliminate enormous amounts of habitual meat consumption. That's t…

> while being cheaper There's the kicker; the "meat replacement" industry is not in it for the good of humanity or whatever, they're in it for the money. They know there's a demographic of people who feel guilty and who are willing to pay extra to soothe their conscience. I'm going to sound like a gatekeeper here, but Real Vegetarians know how to cook without something that looks or tastes like meat. Meat replacement…

> Real Vegetarians

Yes, and how's that ideological conversion going?

If you truly want to lower global meat consumption, fake meat is the only realistic way of achieving that.

Re: Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

#930

Post by Cannabat »

briandear wrote: post #827
Cannabat wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most humans can live deeply fulfilling and joyful lives without causing as much suffering as they do now. They don't need to feel guilty about what they are doing now so much as strive to cause less suffering. Maybe you must eat factory farmed meat, fine, it's not for me to say. But that's not most people. Most people can do with reducing their meat intake, and it isn't hard. It's not like you are in the wilderness h…

Curious about deer: if deer aren’t hunted, they overpopulate and starve. It would be cruel not to hunt them. Wild pigs are another significant environmental nuisance. They reproduce rapidly and cause massive destruction wherever they go. Seems like managing those populations without eating the meet is worse ethically. The idea that killing animals is more cruel than not is to ignore ecology. Factory farms and industr…

> Curious about deer: if deer aren’t hunted, they overpopulate and starve. It would be cruel not to hunt them.

I strongly disagree with this. If there were no humans participating, and deer ended up overpopulated, and then starved, would there be any issue? Of course not, this is just how nature balances itself.

That "killing an animal directly via hunting" is more cruel than "letting the populate self-correct via natural processes" is not a matter of common sense - it's not something we all agree on. There is an implication that we know better than the universe and I'm not convinced that is the case.

> Wild pigs are another significant environmental nuisance. They reproduce rapidly and cause massive destruction wherever they go. Seems like managing those populations without eating the meet is worse ethically.

I assume you are referring to feral pigs, which are not wild in the sense that a native creature is. They are domesticated pigs which have ended up in foreign environments. Whether hunting them is appropriate or not, I'm not sure.

Nowadays, though, we have gotten ourselves in a pickle, by eliminating the natural predators in many environments in which deer thrive naturally, or have adapted to. Via our own lack of foresight, consideration for the planet as a whole, or even some degree of self-serving malice, we have created a really tricky problem.

I do agree we ought to work on this issue. Hunting is probably the best, most practical solution we have, but only because I believe we should try to fix what we have broken, not because it is somehow less cruel. A less practical but far less cruel solution may be a sterilization program for the invasive populations.

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