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Nobody wants to teach anymore

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Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#921

Post by orestarod »

ALittleLight wrote: post #898
dhosek wrote: post #457

Former HS math teacher here. It was the hardest job I’ve ever had. I still have nightmares about being back in the classroom 18 years later. I was easily working 12+ hours a day doing class planning, grading, etc. not to mention the actual teaching. Returning to programming my pay doubled and my stress level dropped profoundly. Teacher pay should easily be double what it is. (And about that summers off—with the excep…

I will never understand why teachers both do lots of extra work and complain about it. Teachers aren't slaves. If your job requires you to work 12 hour days quit and do something else. If you like working that hard, then why complain? Plus, my own experience in the public school system as a student tells me not all teachers are working 12, or even 8, hour days. Again, if you want to be a good teacher - why complain t…

What happens if no one complains, nothing changes as a result, and everyone just quits instead? You get the current situation, which has not even developed fully. Most of what you take for granted is because someone at one point in time complained about how things were and tried to change them. If you are good enough, force change, just quitting it is an acceptance that you lose your battle and you go on to select another, easier battle, in the hopes you won't lose that too. Nothing wrong with quitting, but I do find it wrong to smear those who complain about wrong things.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#922

Post by swores »

RHSeeger wrote: post #555
swores wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking as if "choices need to be made" doesn't extend to the question of whether or not they get enough tax dollars total, regardless of split between income and pensions. But actually, you're the only commenter I've so far seen in the thread who claims that their pensions are enough to make up for their salaries. Personally I think both salaries and pensions for (most) teachers should increase, in most count…

> you're the only commenter I've so far seen in the thread who claims that their pensions are enough to make up for their salaries That is not true, given that I was replying to you, and you were replying to the person that said _this_. > Counterpoint: teachers' pay is great, it's just backloaded in pension plans. That being said, in some places the teachers make good money when you include their pension; in other pl…

> That is not true, given that I was replying to you, and you were replying to the person that said _this_.

a) Oops! Not sure why I thought that diognesofsinope's comment and your comment were written by the same person, my bad.

b) You've either made the same mistake I did or you've excellently satirised my mistake, as you were replying not to me but to somebody else :P

So fair enough, sorry I thought your comment that I replied to was the owner of the original belief that salaries + pensions = enough currently, and then expanding on that belief.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#923

Post by raarts »

I'd like to offer a contrarian view. Note I'm a former tech enterpreneur, switched late in life to teaching CS in college 5 years ago, several members in my family are HS teachers.

1. Teacher aren't respected any more. True. The main reason: outcome quality is dropping. Reading/math proficiency has been dropping for tens of years. The general public knows this.

2. Disorderly classrooms. Due to changing norms and morals, setups where kids don't face the teacher but each other or even the back of the back wall it's become impossible to keep everyone focused. Everybody suffers.

3. Endless new teaching methods, experiments. Misconceptions like: 'kids nowadays need 21st century skills', 'knowledge can be acquired from the internet', 'almost nobody needs algebra later on in life', 'kids can decide for themselves what they need to learn'. No.

4. Smaller families lead to more attention per child, princes and princesses, helicopter parents. School admin also bend the knee towards this.

5. Kids with special needs get way more attention, which is a time sink. More and more kids are getting a label.

6. Most contentious opinion: men teach differently from women. We need more men in the classroom. Women try to treat boys like girls. But boys have more energy and need more playtime outside. After they get rid of that energy they'll pay more attention in class. All this leads to boys dropping out way more often.

7. Education standards for becoming a teacher are too low. Many teachers can't even to math properly, or can't spell themselves.

I deliberately have been blunt while writing the above list. Take that into account.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#924

Post by silvestrov »

tsol wrote: post #902
nine_k wrote: post #858

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said it before and will say it again: the way public high schools are arranged is cruel towards both the kids and the adults. (Also counterproductive, but first of all, cruel.) Teenagers are forced into groups of the same age, within 1 year tolerance. This is the age of learning of social structures, building social ties, learning about various forms of social status, etc. They need to be inside a rich social struc…

You said exactly what I've always thought about public school but could never put into words. I've found, though, that private school avoids some of these problems by filtering out problem kids and keeping class sizes small. Kids can be made to be friends with each other(at least to some extent), but many of them don't have that guidance

I think the main difference between private and public schools (in Denmark) is that private schools can expel kids who sabotage the lessons.

Public schools cannot expel kids. They can't even make a kid move to another school.

Denmark has also closed "special classes" for disruptive kids and classes for autistic kids and put the in the normal classes. So now you have the autistic kid who can't handle noise in the same class as pupils who like to make noise.

In addition to this, the problem kids are often made into the victims. So you are not allowed to blame them or tell the parents they need to parent their kid.

So we also have an exodus of teachers. I cannot see how you can survive as a teacher in such a situation.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#925

Post by vmilner »

galaxyLogic wrote: post #767
KennyBlanken wrote: post #742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, and hear me out: we could cut our military budget (which is larger than the next ten or so countries combined, both total and per capita) and start tipping the corporate tax share back towards the ~%50 it was sixty years ago and magically be able to: * pay teachers a fair wage * hire enough teachers, assistants, and admins so that teachers don't have to work at least another half a workday 'off the books' * fund…

I'm not familiar with US Private vs. Public schools so which one requires you to pay for the lunch? In many countries in Europe there are only public schools.

I’m not saying you’re wrong but it surprises me that there are many countries in Europe with no (or even very few) private schools - are you thinking of Former soviet bloc countries?

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#926

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

Ekaros wrote: post #866
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #3

Teaching/training is quite difficult. I've done quite a bit of training (but not true teaching -there's a difference), over the years. My family is full of teachers. I have many friends that are teachers. It's amazing how "solutions" never seem to actually get around to simply paying teachers more, and maybe not expecting them to be child-rearers, in lieu of parents.

I don't actually think the money is main problem. You can keep giving them more money and it wont change anything in long run. Unless they are grossly underpaid compared to cost of living. It is all about giving them tools to solve issues with those children that cause issues. And maybe cultural change back to state where it is most of the time kids fault. Not teachers... And lessening the work load where possible. M…

> I don't actually think the money is main problem.

Most of the teachers that I know, personally, mention this as the first problem to solve. I don’t think any of them believe that it’s the only problem to address, but there’s not even a tiny doubt that the great majority of teachers believe it to be something that needs to be dealt with, before tackling the rest of the pile.

But looking at this very conversation, shows that the idea of paying teachers more, is quite unpopular. The verbal and mental gymnastics that people go through, to avoid coming to the conclusion that teachers simply need to be paid more, are kind of astonishing. We have no problem at all, coming to that conclusion for many other vocations (especially the one we happen to be in).

I guess, because of my own family/friend situation, I find this stance puzzling.

I assume, then, that a good place to start, is to find out why people don’t want to pay teachers more, and address that.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#927

Post by polypodiopsi »

GiorgioG wrote: post #4

Great, let's move forward with some real online learning initiatives. The current system is antiquated and no longer makes sense from a purely educational perspective. For too long the US has used the school system as a baby-sitting service while both parents (or single parents) are at work.

What do you know about it?

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#928

Post by polypodiopsi »

douglaswlance wrote: post #727
TIPSIO wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment made me think of the scene in the first Star Trek movie where all the little Spock children are in an emotionless hole being programmed with math and philosophy. Not saying you are wrong or right, but for many kids having an adult who simply cares is worth infinitely more than any amount of efficiencies or base material.

So automate what can be automated to free the teacher to care more.

Lol, you have no idea. Prove me wrong... What do you think should be automated about the teaching profession?

Taking care? Motivating? Observing listening analysing what is happening in that temporary microsociety you manage? Prepare lessons, research extend your own knowledge? React to what is Happening changing the course of your lessons to react to what actually happens in the classroom? Have conbersations with kids and parents? Judge if the production of these little ones shows progression? Figure out what potential problems might be (structurally socially psychologically). Have humor, and dedicate some time to just simply forming a bond? Damn I cant think of a lot that could be automated besides the officework where the same tools are used as everywhere for scheduling, dicumentation communication etc...

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#929

Post by TurkishPoptart »

>Everywhere you look, states have banned almost every aspect of education that’s worth teaching. States banned math books for being too woke. They’re passing bills that don’t let you teach history.

Critical race/gender theory =/= history. The 1619 project book is also not history, but a reinterpretation of it to empower today's neo-Marxist race grifters (i.e. Ibram X. Kendi, Robin DeAngelo, Nikole Hanna Jones, among others).

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#930

Post by soderfoo »

acjohnson55 wrote: post #500
jedberg wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the engineer who thinks everything can be solved with software. To automate grading you first must create a general AI, because if you just do multiple choice exams, you aren't really testing or measuring someone's ability to perform the task, you're just measuring their ability to make a good guess. And some teachers do that. But not the good ones. As for planning, some senior teachers have filing cabinets label…

> Ah, the engineer who thinks everything can be solved with software. Just as a bit of feedback, starting your comment like this may have turned off the original poster to the rest of your thoughts, which I agree with.

Wish I had this much tact. I usually abstain from saying anything or respond reflexively, which never helps.

Great job communicating here.

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