Live data from Hacker News

Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

reuters.com

921–930 of 1001 posts

Re: Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

#921

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Putin is doing to Ukraine right now is absolutely horrific.. but quite frankly, NATO intervention is unlikely and the Ukraine is going to be taking the L here. This isn't a 1-dimensional scale (NATO > Russia). China can always weigh in. Europe can have mixed reactions. etc. That's how world wars start, which would be catastrophic for everyone. Nukes are also on the table if Putin really feels cornered. Economic…

I buy every one of your arguments except "A pro-west Ukraine is an existential threat to Russia," and I think this one deserves significant pushback: How is this not the case for Latvia and Lithuania (not to mention Estonia), which are both NATO members directly bordering Russia, and in fact separating them from their Kaliningrad exclave? On the other hand, if those countries _are_ an existential threat to Russia, th…

That's fair push back. I stated it affirmatively, but I meant it in the sense that Putin / Russia sees it as an existential threat. Whether or not it truly is I do not know.

Maybe it has to do with pipelines or ports.

Maybe it has to do with a critical mass of bordering NATO states.

Maybe Putin is just short bald and angry and wants to flex on the west.

Foreign policy often seems more art than science. More poker than chess.

W.R.T Mexico, consider the Cuban missile crisis. It's not always about invasion.

W.R.T destruction, consider that the Axis lost WWII but Germany and Japan still "exist". It might be more correct to say "a pro-west Ukraine is an existential threat to the Russian Empire and their ability to project power beyond their borders, but Russia itself will always exist."

Re: Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

#922
post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tucker Carlson and the rest of the Republican party's support for Russia boils down to "we need Russian support against China". Have they actually been to Russia? The country is intensely anti-Western and already on the verge of becoming a Chinese puppet state.

I think it's more "we need Russian support against Democrats". Given the events in US politics of the last 6 years.

Fits with the "Trump praises ‘genius’ Putin for moving troops to eastern Ukraine" stuff.

Re: Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

#923
My reasoning here is as follows:

Putin doesn't care about money - he has all the money he needs. He doesn't also care about welfare of average Russian citizens as long as he can stay within power.

He cares mostly about staying in power and by extension about others perceiving him as a good leader. It is incredibly obvious to me that dictators don't end well when they lose their power. I assume losing power is as bad outcome for Putin, game-theoretically as getting Russia nuked to the ground.

Over the last 30 years Russia was progressively losing ground within its' sphere of influence. Poland, Ukraine even Belarus are slowly fading further and further away. All the context for today we need is the Orange Revolution, Euromaidan and recent protests in Belarus which show high level of anti-russian and pro-western sentiment among society of these countries.

When those countries turn fully pro-western, with relatively wealthier and happier citizenry, it's a matter of days rather than years when the same sentiments will reach Russia, leading to a quick change in Russia's top-level government.

If Putin wants to stay in power, he must convince people in Ukraine and Belarus that it's in their best interest to stay on his side. And lethal force is really the only tool he has at his disposal for it.

So his options really are: - Hope that he can cling to some remaining bits of power until a reasonably peaceful end of life and be aware that probably soon afterwards Russia will start turning pro-democratic. - Do whatever is within his control to keep Ukraine and Belarus subdued.

Weighing pros and cons in this particularly hard situation, he must have chosen that option number two has a higher EV to keep him in power for longer. What can happen now:

- (best scenario for the democratic world) Ukrainian forces manage to defend themselves from the offensive. That basically means Russia's collapse as it is today. It's probably in the best interest of many western democracies to maximize the probability of this outcome, but I'm not sure how probable it is really.

- (worst scenario for the democratic world) Ukraine is taken over completely very quickly with minimal Russian cost and loss. World doesn't really have a chance to react. Russia weathers sanctions ok and gets into closer ties with China.

- Russia cripples Ukraine military, the war drags on guerilla-style. Russia manages to successfully occupy part of the country and the rest becomes warzone wasteland. Russia saves face, Ukraine and Belarus and under complete control.

- War drags on and Russian can't continue with the cost of it. Ukraine gets severely weakened but manages some resemblance of independence while Russia occupies only very minor territories. May be enough for Russia to save face, but I would bet not really and it would lead to another scenario where Russian government collapses.

- Western allies get involved in the conflict, but none of the sides decide to use nukes. Russian military will get destroyed and Russian government collapses.

- (worst scenario for the whole world) Western allies get involved in the conflict, and one of the sides decide to use nukes. Humanity's development gets moved back hundreds of years.

- China and Russia are in active cooperation. Russia will keep escalating the war in Europe until one or all western nations engages. On that day China begins offensive on Taiwan and attacks US. WW3 starts.

I believe in most of the countries in the world military command is playing out all of those and many more potential scenarios. I would like to live in more boring times.

Re: Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

#924
post #691

What is the endgame here? Russia is outclassed by NATO both economically and militarily. If NATO intervenes economically, Russia will lose much. If NATO intervenes militarily, Russia will lose much (but at great cost to NATO). The risk of NATO intervention is high, right? Russia understood this before invading, right? So it seems Russia is accepting a high risk of loss. But it doesn't make sense that a nation as soph…

I think the risk of direct NATO military intervention is very low, due to Ukraine not being a member state. As the Nato secretary said, they will support Ukraine, but made it clear the security guarantees are only for allies. "I think also that we need to realize that Ukraine is a highly valued partner. We support them with military support, with political support, with the cyber defences, with equipment. Different A…

> As the Nato secretary said, they will support Ukraine

With words.

EU has also supported Ukraine with words recently.

I've seen ads on the telly making an emotional statement that "Ukraine is Europe".

Europe as a continent does not exist: it is a small corner of Asia. Eurocentricism needs to stop. This us-vs-them game needs to stop.

This invasion is terrible for normal people, Ukrainian (bombs), Russian (sanctions) and everyone else (instability, high prices). It could have been prevented if the "west"/NATO was not "pulling on" (arming) Ukraine. The NATO already have plenty places to make bases on Russian border.

See what happened to Cuba. The US/NATO also do not like bases on their border. They should have understood Russia also does not like that.

But then I believe NATO is more into the business of war then the business of peace.

Re: Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

#925

What is the endgame here? Russia is outclassed by NATO both economically and militarily. If NATO intervenes economically, Russia will lose much. If NATO intervenes militarily, Russia will lose much (but at great cost to NATO). The risk of NATO intervention is high, right? Russia understood this before invading, right? So it seems Russia is accepting a high risk of loss. But it doesn't make sense that a nation as soph…

Russia sold gas to the EU way below spot prices. Nordstream 2 was in focus because of this. Now that the project is suspended, the EU is importing very expensive Gas from the US. So basically: the USA gets money for gas, and Russia gets the eastern Ukraine. They both get what they want. Enjoy the show.

"The stability of the EU’s energy supply may be threatened if a high proportion of imports are concentrated among relatively few external partners. In 2019, almost two thirds of the extra-EU's crude oil imports came from Russia (27 %), Iraq (9 %), Nigeria and Saudi Arabia (both 8 %) and Kazakhstan and Norway (both 7 %). A similar analysis shows that almost three quarters of the EU's imports of natural gas came from Russia (41 %), Norway (16 %), Algeria (8 %) and Qatar (5 %), while over three quarters of solid fuel (mostly coal) imports originated from Russia (47 %), the United States (18 %) and Australia (14 %)."

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/cache/infographs/energy/bloc-2...

Doesn't look like US is a significant supplier of natural gas to Europe. Not sure how much capacity the US has at its LNG export terminals either.

Re: Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

#926

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Putin is doing to Ukraine right now is absolutely horrific.. but quite frankly, NATO intervention is unlikely and the Ukraine is going to be taking the L here. This isn't a 1-dimensional scale (NATO > Russia). China can always weigh in. Europe can have mixed reactions. etc. That's how world wars start, which would be catastrophic for everyone. Nukes are also on the table if Putin really feels cornered. Economic…

I buy every one of your arguments except "A pro-west Ukraine is an existential threat to Russia," and I think this one deserves significant pushback: How is this not the case for Latvia and Lithuania (not to mention Estonia), which are both NATO members directly bordering Russia, and in fact separating them from their Kaliningrad exclave? On the other hand, if those countries _are_ an existential threat to Russia, th…

The pro-Russia Mexico argument is a bit off, I agree. But please don't compare the Baltic countries to a 44 million population country. We'd barely fill half of Kiev.

Re: Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

#927

There's some real vitriol here and comments bordering on being open discriminatory attacks ("Russia is a wasteland of civilization and we should just nuke them", "stop drinking Vodka, Sergei"). I hope that folks remember that the state isn't the Russian citizenry, and even if there is a minority support for this in the country it doesn't represent the people... _especially_ when the leader is a murderous autocrat. Th…

I feel bad for the innocent Russians receiving unwarranted vitriol, but I feel much worse for the innocent Ukrainians currently being killed.

Re: Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

#928

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so the Russian people aren't entirely enthusiastic about this. Maybe they'll have another revolution.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10546799/More-150-s... "More than 150 senior Russian officials have signed an open letter condemning Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine as 'an unprecedented atrocity' and warning of 'catastrophic consequences'."

I hope none of them plan on accepting cups of tea in the near future[0].

[0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvine...

Re: Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

#929

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really not about Russia, it's about Putin desire to be a famous dictator like Stalin and Hitler. He already got high-score as a billionaire dictator of Russia with gigantic palaces and whatnot. He already did some 'small' wars and expanded Russia's territory. Now he wants to play big and defeat a major country and be considered a major player like USSR was. There's no profit in it.

Your opinion is very biased and without a strong foundation. Here on hackernews we expect to have in depth detailed discussions where we try to unravel certain actions. In this why Russia invaded Ukraine.

All hypothesis are acceptable.

Re: Russian forces invade Ukraine after Putin orders attack

#930
post #914

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There won't be major loss of life nor any "war" in conventional sense. That's a bit premature. As for the rest: Russians could rise en-masse to put a stop to this. Call a general strike all over Russia tomorrow and you might be able to avoid those decades of isolation and stagnating economy.

Uh-huh, ask the Sailors of Kronstadt how that went: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronstadt_rebellion#Aftermath

1904? Really?
Post reply on HN