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Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

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Re: Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

#921
post #725
post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll get no argument from me that Apple's system is pretty good from a consumer standpoint — that's the primary reason why I predicted that it'd remain popular. It's really nice knowing that you can nuke a subscription without getting some dark patterns trying to talk you out of it. On the other hand, it's really easy to imagine that you'd see something like “$9.99 IAP; $7.99 direct from Epic/Amazon/Google/Netflix/…

They're not allowed to offer it lower price direct.

The question I’d have is whether they can hedge around that with freebies. It’d be an interesting lawsuit if, say, Epic started including some in-game rewards rather than direct monetary discounts and Apple sued claiming that those should count as a violation of the contract.

Re: Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

#922
post #783

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying to hang onto systems where your customers resent paying you is not where you want to be. You bring up an interesting proposal, fundamentally Apple needs to create a system where developers WANT to pay the fees because of the value they get in using the system and services. And all those connected credit cards and customer identities definitely have value.

> Trying to hang onto systems where your customers resent paying you is not where you want to be. OK but like, dark patterns exist and everybody knows users don’t like them. Developers use them anyway because they’re profitable . Yeah I guess you feel bad but the bags of money help dry those tears. If there’s no chance of customers altering their decision )because you have something exclusive for which there is no su…

Maybe I'm just optimistic, but I believe that good and honest companies will generally prosper over those actively employing dark patterns in the long run.

Any exclusive niche employing dark patterns makes an opportunity for an honest broker to come in and clean house.

Re: Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

#923

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple having competition isn't a problem. That competition selling me to that competition's actual customers--enabling difficulties and dark patterns that Apple does not--is a problem. Then don't use that competition? It's not like Apple is special here. They've developed a reputation for not doing that, which is what you're relying on for them to not do it. Any other competitor could develop a similar reputation i…

The unique aspect of Apple is that they are uniquely invested in getting me to buy the next iPhone. Stripe doesn't care about having me do anything. The business using Stripe is their customer. I am an incidental aspect of their arrangement with that business and if that business decides to be an asshole, Stripe just shrugs. Apple doesn't. I mean this as politely as I can: that you're writing this off as a strawman a…

That I considered it a strawman seems to be because we're making different points, and talking past each other, and you might be forgiven in thinking I was doing what I accused you of.

I've been very clear that I'm talking about a separate store on the platform, while you're talking specifically about payment processing. Both are somewhat related to the discussion (with payment processing be more directly relevant to this ruling). To be clear, I don't mind a store getting between me and who I'm paying, but only if there's a level of choice involved that means people have a way to opt out of a third party being involved if they want. If that's at a store level and Apple requires all payments go through Apple pay and a different store does not, I'm fine with that. I feel confident that very quickly what we'd see is that the premium on payments like that, whether for an app or a recurring service/subscription, would quickly drop to a more representative cost of what it takes to offer that feature, just like the store cut would likely change to something more competitive with other stores, based on what it offers.

That you like this feature now and see it as a benefit is not surprising. Because of Apple's position, they're able to fold it into their store fees, which traditionally developers and publishers have not felt they could charge additional for to make up the cost. But that is not something that can be relied on, especially for services and subscriptions, which are generally more cost aligned than application pricing. Epic, for example, is/was charging App Store users that additional amount over the base cost, and Apple's rules were such that they weren't even necessarily allowed to tell people that Apple was causing them to be overcharged.

Consider a world where the status quo shifts, and for services and subscriptions it's more the norm to see things charged extra when bought through App Stores that charge quite a bit over market rate for payment processing. If you had to for example pay an additional 25% for services and subscriptions, would you think it was quite as good a deal? For small things, probably. For large things, maybe that's less likely? If you pay $100/mo for some service, maybe $30/mo to protect your name is a bit steep?

All I can say is that I think we're far more likely to have one or more good providers that will offer this service one multiple platform years from now if we actually open this up and let people put their money where they care. I don't think Apple can be trusted to be stewards of what's best for us overall. Like any public company they are beholden to their board and the stockholders, and the mandate for increased profits. That right now you benefit from their interests does not mean you are guaranteed to do so in the future. Relying on corporate interests to align with our own instead of promoting a system where what we want could be provided by any competitor that wants to provide is seems a poor way forward, to me.

Re: Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

#924
post #902

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that already happens. Apple did not invent online payment and subscription. Consumers do not have a problem buying things online outside the walled garden, and most could not tell you when they’re actually using a Stripe form in a WKWebView or whatever; those that can don’t care much either. The most powerful force in play here is consumer indifference, which Apple have been relying upon.

Apple would not allow you to open that Stripe form in a web view before, so we don’t really know what consumers prefer. I think you’re also underestimating the degree to which normal people hesitate before putting in credit card details on a web form - almost everyone has heard stories about difficult cancellation processes, stolen card databases, etc. Services like ApplePay offer assurances that almost certainly res…

There’s no need to try reasoning things out from first principles. People have been buying online for decades now, and all the experience shows most consumers are indifferent and clueless.

If you don’t believe me, ask a non-tech-sector family member what they think Apple Pay is.

Re: Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

#925
post #444

Think Apple has already seen the writing on the wall - both S. Korea & the US are now probably going to push back against the IAP restrictions, and they can / should do a couple of things, which might actually increase revenue. 1. Cut down the IAP commission to 15% for everyone. 2. Cut down the commission to 5% for those who pay for a Business Account, say at $5,000 a year. The thing is no customer wants to use any c…

It's not just that. As a developer I wouldn't want Apple to know who my paying customers are. Right now, there is no option. With this hopefully there will be more options.

Stop using apple then? Why do you need government to tell apple how to run their company? All these seems really absurd and incompetent coming from Epic.

Re: Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

#926
post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"chargeback" is probably a good keyword too.

Ah, it seems we are back to dark magic times, where you have to find the right magic words, to actually have an effect and not default to bots. To achieve complicated things, like cancel a subscription.

I literally cannot speak to a human at my ISP unless I tell the robocall system that I want to cancel. As in, I'll call and say I need to return some equipment, be on hold for an hour, leave a callback number, and not get called back in the same week. Versus calling and saying I need to cancel, then getting connected to a service rep in 15 seconds and asking them about returning equipment.

Re: Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

#927
post #891
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just that. As a developer I wouldn't want Apple to know who my paying customers are. Right now, there is no option. With this hopefully there will be more options.

Why not? Not that I think it's an unreasonable position, but there's generally going to be some payment processor who knows who your paying customers are, right?

Apple is also in the software business. Payment processors aren't. They're a potential competitor with the power to build their own version of your offering after seeing your numbers, and lock you out of the store.

Re: Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

#928
post #302

Think Apple has already seen the writing on the wall - both S. Korea & the US are now probably going to push back against the IAP restrictions, and they can / should do a couple of things, which might actually increase revenue. 1. Cut down the IAP commission to 15% for everyone. 2. Cut down the commission to 5% for those who pay for a Business Account, say at $5,000 a year. The thing is no customer wants to use any c…

> The thing is no customer wants to use any company's half-assed bug-riddled purchase or subscription system. Every iOS and macOS user will prefer to use the Apple system. the apple developer ecosystem (with regards to subscriptions and app purchases) in my experience has been quite awful for a multi trillion dollar company. really bad API docs, really poor experience around understanding what is even happening in th…

For example, the automatic domain validation of Apple Pay Merchant never happen.

Merchant using letsencrypt need to validate domain every 3 by hand. And that "feature" even exists on their document.

Re: Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

#929
How do people say that this is Apple's victory? The next lawsuit is already on horizon when apps will force users to pay more when going through Apple pay and Apple will force the pricing through new ToS. Even then, this verdict has consequences of epic proportions. If anything, Epic has done more for developers than any lame duck politician.

Re: Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

#930

>In a separate judgment, the court affirmed that Epic Games was in breach of its contract with Apple when it implemented the alternative payment system in the Fortnite app. As a result, Epic must pay Apple 30 percent of all revenue collected through the system since it was implemented — a sum of more than $3.5 million. Well, that seems rather BS. To even try for the antitrust case they were required to show how it wo…

Epic was in breach of contract. Which means not only do they have to pay the fine but Apple is likely to permanently ban them from the store.

I feel you missed my point entirely.

However banning Epic from the store would be great honestly, then maybe the next injunction would be to force Apple to allow users to install what they want.

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