Labor shortage or terrible jobs? • Hacker News Board

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#921

Post by heavyset_go » Sat, May 01, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

terragon wrote: post #666

heavyset_go wrote: post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a business goes bust, those losses can be written of at tax time. A worker losing their job faces homelessness, the inability to see a doctor or pay for their medications, and hunger.

To avail the benefit of writing off taxes, the ex-business owner requires future income. Who's to say that he/she won't be unemployed for a long while after devastating their life savings?

Then they can get a job. Why are they taking on risks that they can't bear with their investments?

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#922

Post by malandrew » Sat, May 01, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

atoav wrote: post #796

syshum wrote: post #793

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>and they are an issue in many big cities Housing is an issue in big cities largely due to government policies that both limit inventory (building and zoning regulations) and limit profitability (rent control) that make is extremely undesirable to create new housing. The solution to this is NOT government housing but less government regulations about building new housing

> The solution to this is NOT government housing but less government regulations about building new housing Where and when did this work? Have you any examples?

Tokyo. Prices have largely remained flat for the same unit of housing for decades because there aren't nearly as many government restrictions on construction of new housing.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#923

Post by malandrew » Sat, May 01, 2021, 7:00 PM UTC

brigandish wrote: post #909

hamiltont wrote: post #807

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not who you replied to, but I believe the current popular answer is to refer to Japan. Numerous articles have been written regarding how they managed their housing crisis by deregulating zoning and building permits. You'll have to read up on it yourself, it's beyond me to summarize as it's a complex topic and the model is not perfectly exportable. Partially for "real" reasons, such as Japan has so many earthquakes th…

I live in Japan and can tell you that those conditions lead to ugly, low standard buildings that seem to me to be among the very top complaints foreigners living here have about the place. The incentives are completely skewed here and seem just as likely to be corrupt as any other place. There's plenty of discussion about it on these boards, this one comes to mind https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26399071 As to t…

> ugly, low standard buildings

ugly is subjective so I won't touch on that.

The low standard one is reasonable as that is what keeps costs low. The alternative is high standard and high cost. You can't really get high standards for low costs.

If the government dictates that all housing needs to be high standard, the collateral damage to that policy is that you can only build housing that prices people out of the market.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#924

Post by ShroudedNight » Sat, May 01, 2021, 7:02 PM UTC

ozim wrote: post #387

ep103 wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://academictimes.com/economic-news-reporting-suffers-fr... No. News sources are focusing on business instead of labor's issues, because news statistically favors business interests, not labor's. If your hypothetical business owner is unable to start a business without paying a reasonable wage, then that business should not exist. And your hypothetical business owner should invest in Apple, Facebook, or otherwise…

But that is creating tragedy of commons that we have now. People who are having money are investing in stocks or ETFs, buying real estate because it is still better than having cash. Which inflates stocks/real estate bubble and when it bursts it will be much bigger mess than paying low wages but in constant manner, spread out over multiple people and multiple years. I definitely did not write about business that cann…

> buying real estate

Tax positive externalities at 100%

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#925

Post by TOGoS » Sat, May 01, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #895

TOGoS wrote: post #892

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there are a variety of options between the extremes. There are a variety of options completely outside of that continuum. Like, how about a democratically planned economy where we intentionally work on things that actually help society instead of just whatever happens to make the most profit for the current owners? I think a big part of burnout is that the work we're doing is clearly pointless. I'm stuck writing de…

> I'm stuck writing debugging shitty Android apps all day. Can I please go plant some forests or something? If this was the status quo, there'd be just as many people thinking "I'm stuck outside doing manual labor planting trees. Can I please spent time doing something mindless sitting at a desk in a climate controlled workspace instead?" Someone out there is deriving value from the android app you're debugging or el…

> there'd be just as many people thinking "I'm stuck outside doing manual labor planting trees

Then we could trade jobs for a while. Part of the problem (for us knowledge workers) is that we get pidgeonholed into doing one thing because that's where we have enough experience to convince someone to pay us to work on their thing. Not to mention that switching jobs or taking breaks is more annoying than it ought to be because health insurance and other benefits are tied to employment.

> Someone out there is deriving value from the android app you're debugging

The CEO. Who already has enough money that he could retire if he wanted. I don't think people in general would miss our buggy app if it disappeared tomorrow. I do miss the trees when they disappear, though.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#926

Post by ipnon » Sat, May 01, 2021, 7:11 PM UTC

derrekl wrote: post #860

Not going to speak to the article but want to layout that in 1997 when I was a waiter at Chili’s I made $2.50 an hour base wage, but with tips nearly always cleared $24/h. In 1999 I was a waiter for an upscale steakhouse in the city of Chicago and on average made about $40/h. Several of the waiters there were career waiters and had families. Many career waiters worked very hard to get jobs at higher and higher end re…

It seems like "elbow grease"-type middle class jobs are a thing of the past.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#927

Post by jdgoesmarching » Sat, May 01, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #893

blihp wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If raising the minimum wage will do them in, they're already halfway there if things are really [1] that dire and will end up there soon enough. So yes, people are better off not working for those types of businesses. If a business can only remain solvent by paying unreasonably low wages, it puts downward wage pressure on competing businesses and traps unskilled workers in a labor pool of dead-end jobs with little ho…

> while giving them breathing room to figure out 'what next?' I'm dubious of this claim. My experience from observing many friends in this situation at different economic levels (enough savings to take a break in US. Unemployment benefits in Europe) is that they rarely use the time to figure out what is next. Instead they most often use the time to relax and only spend time trying to figure out what is next when pres…

This is a very nice way of saying “I asked my poor friends to confirm what I want to believe.”

When all you have to look forward to your entire life is some slog of service industry jobs with little to no benefits or vacation, of course you maximize the amount of time you spend on your own life. Poor people deserve to relax, and I have never had a job in my tech career that compared to the stress or exhaustion of my minimum wage jobs.

If I get fired now, I’d be happy to go find my next career move. Back then, you would have to drag me into another restaurant.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#928

Post by aazaa » Sat, May 01, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

> "We have four positions open," Christy Welch, the co-owner of Black Cat Bake Shop, told the Missoulian. "One is for a barista. We've gotten maybe three to four applications for that job, when we would usually get 20-25. We have three back-of-house positions and we've gotten no applications."

> Current pay for most of those positions: $10.50 an hour. Overnight shifts get $11.50. Tips are shared. (Current average rental cost for a one-bedroom in Missoula: $1010 a month, up 27% from last year

In other words, average rent is 63% of gross income. Completely unreasonable.

It's hard to sympathize with the business owners here. If they want to fill positions, the answer is simple: pay more. And more. And more. Until you hit the price that will attract applicants. If you can't find applicants at any price that keeps you in business, time to fold.

It's baffling how these stories that the article cites so often feature incredulous business owners shocked to discover they can't fill economically unviable positions. It's almost as if they think they're entitled to sub-subsistence labor.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#929

Post by dehrmann » Sat, May 01, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

danaris wrote: post #204

dehrmann wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> farms unwilling to pay a fair wage Half the blame has to go to consumers and a lack of desire for fair-wage strawberries that cost 2x as much.

That would only be true if, when I went to the supermarket, there was a display of strawberries that said over it "Low Low Prices Enabled By Virtual Slavery And Other Worker Abuses!", and another display of strawberries next to it that said "Slightly Higher Prices, But Their Workers Live Well!" You can't claim the market will resolve things when there is no meaningful opportunity for customers to "vote with their wal…

> Slightly Higher Prices

I think it's more than slightly higher. Cherries and peaches are both stone fruit. They're grown in similar regions, and the trees are so closely related you see hybrids commonly marketed. Cherries are regularly 2x-3x the price by weight because the smaller fruit means they're more labor intensive. Raspberries are also noticeably more expensive than strawberries, and I assume it's because they're harder to pick.

These are labor-intensive produce, so labor drives the price. Staples like wheat aren't, so an extra $5 per hour for someone driving a tractor really would be "slightly higher prices."

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#930

Post by ipnon » Sat, May 01, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

whatever1 wrote: post #596

Coming from southern Europe, I have to say that we have been there 20 years ago and it looks ugly. In Southern Europe, the family (and not the individual) is the smallest decision making unit and it is typical to have 3 generations of people living under the same roof, all of them supporting (and applying pressure to) each other in different ways. Parents and grandparents are helping youth financially. Youth in South…

It would be quite a dilemma to choose between the livelihood of my dependent family and the opportunity to make more money elsewhere. What have been the solutions to this problem in Southern Europe?