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Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

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Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#921
post #825

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Thomas said "The majority can not square it's fundamentally flawed fair-use analysis with a finding that declaring code is copyrightable". Which is obviously false. A fair use analysis can -only- take place if the assumption is the code is copyrightable You are not disputing Thomas's point; you are agreeing with it. Thomas's point was exactly that, before even embarking on a fair use analysis, the Court should have…

Not so. The appeals court found in Oracle's favor, not Google's. Meaning they found that the API was copyrightable, and that Google's use was not fair use. The majority supreme court opinion basically said "even assuming it is copyrightable, this IS fair use", with the implication that if it's not copyrightable, there is no case, so the same outcome, a win for Google. They intentionally were keeping their decision as…

> Not so. The appeals court found in Oracle's favor, not Google's. Meaning they found that the API was copyrightable, and that Google's use was not fair use.

Again, you are not disagreeing; you are agreeing. Thomas is arguing that the appeals court's ruling, which you correctly describe, should have been affirmed. Which is the opposite decision from the one the Court made, just as I said.

> The majority supreme court opinion basically said "even assuming it is copyrightable, this IS fair use"

Here is the exact quote from the opinion:

"we assume, for argument’s sake, that the material was copyrightable. But we hold that the copying here at issue nonetheless constituted a fair use."

In other words, the Court did not even consider the question of whether or not the material was copyrightable. They assumed it "for the sake of argument", which is just a dodge. They should have considered the question directly; and here is what Thomas says about that:

"The majority purports to assume, without deciding, that the code is protected. But its fair-use analysis is wholly inconsistent with the substantial protection Congress gave to computer code. By skipping over the copyrightability question, the majority disregards half the relevant statutory text and distorts its fair-use analysis."

Further comments below.

> You claim that Thomas is saying that "if the court decided it was copyrightable, then they would have also had to have found this was not fair use".

Yes, because the relevant facts that would support a ruling, based on the statute, that the code was copyrightable, also indicate, based on the statute, that Google's use was not fair use. But by skipping over the copyrightability analysis, the majority is simply ignoring those facts and those portions of the statute. That is Thomas's point.

> To form an argument in this way is logically consistent

Not if it ignores additional information that is not consistent with information used in the argument. Thomas is not saying that the Court's argument is logically inconsistent on its face. He's saying that it's inconsistent once you put back in the information that the Court left out: the facts that support a ruling, based on the statute, that the code was copyrightable, also support a ruling, based on the statute, that Google's use was not fair use. The majority is simply failing to consider those facts.

In other words, the Court can't just "assume for the sake of argument" that the code is copyrightable in a vacuum. They have to take into account the relevant facts of the case that support such an assumption, and consider the implications of those facts, and the relevant parts of the statute, for the fair use analysis.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#922
post #921

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so. The appeals court found in Oracle's favor, not Google's. Meaning they found that the API was copyrightable, and that Google's use was not fair use. The majority supreme court opinion basically said "even assuming it is copyrightable, this IS fair use", with the implication that if it's not copyrightable, there is no case, so the same outcome, a win for Google. They intentionally were keeping their decision as…

> Not so. The appeals court found in Oracle's favor, not Google's. Meaning they found that the API was copyrightable, and that Google's use was not fair use. Again, you are not disagreeing; you are agreeing. Thomas is arguing that the appeals court's ruling, which you correctly describe, should have been affirmed. Which is the opposite decision from the one the Court made, just as I said. > The majority supreme court…

>> Not if it ignores additional information that is not consistent with information used in the argument

That is your assumption. You assume the majority ignored that additional information. You say the court is failing to consider the facts that would indicate it copyrightable; that is -assumption- on your part. The court had the same set of facts in front of it (read: the entire body of relevant law); the majority chose to apply them to a different problem than the one Thomas wanted them to be applied to, and came to a different outcome than the one Thomas wanted.

The court can totally "assume for the sake of argument"; it does not reduce the surface of the law, it does not take facts out of the equation. It just makes arguing one part of it moot.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#923
post #70

While the result is a big relief, I think it's not as decisive as I'm noticing some headlines (and commenters) are claiming. One of the big open questions is "are APIs copyrightable?" The court skirted that question, and instead focused on whether it was fair use: > To decide no more than is necessary to resolve this case, the Court assumes for argument’s sake that the copied lines can be copyrighted, and focuses on…

> One of the big open questions is "are APIs copyrightable?" The court skirted that question, and instead focused on whether it was fair use Also what people fails to realize with fair use is that it is up to the defendant raise a fair use defense and then a judge has to approve of that defense as a valid one (Viva Frei explains this https://youtu.be/AzQz1LrjCWk?t=253 ).Meaning Oracle can still go on with its lawfare…

Fortunately, although it is pay-to-play, it's not pay-to-win. Oracle (or any other well-heeled player) can spend half a million or more in legal fees trying to go after a small company, but that doesn't mean that company has to match costs.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#925
post #877

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let's back to that. The only two companies that ever had issues with Java owners were Microsoft thanks to J++ and Google with its Android Java. Lots of companies have produced their own Java version, without any issue. Sad that things have gone this way and Google isn't being hardly punished for what they did to Java ecosystem with their special flavoured Java and by giving Sun's fatal blow. Thankfully they never…

> The only two companies that ever had issues with Java owners were Microsoft thanks to J++ and Google with its Android Java. While the Apache project is not a company, it definitely had issues with Sun over Apache Harmony's Java certification (I'm not confirming or denying that this was part of IBM's proxy wars with Sun). Incidentally, Apache Harmony is what Google used to jumpstart not-officially-Java compatibility…

I love how Google apologists sell Android fragmentation and OEM modifications to AOSP as an improvement over J2ME.

Now excuse me while I will compile some stuff in Java 16 with the SIMD preview API.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#926
post #921

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not so. The appeals court found in Oracle's favor, not Google's. Meaning they found that the API was copyrightable, and that Google's use was not fair use. Again, you are not disagreeing; you are agreeing. Thomas is arguing that the appeals court's ruling, which you correctly describe, should have been affirmed. Which is the opposite decision from the one the Court made, just as I said. > The majority supreme court…

>> Not if it ignores additional information that is not consistent with information used in the argument That is your assumption. You assume the majority ignored that additional information. You say the court is failing to consider the facts that would indicate it copyrightable; that is -assumption- on your part. The court had the same set of facts in front of it (read: the entire body of relevant law); the majority…

> You assume the majority ignored that additional information.

If they didn't, why is it never even mentioned in the opinion? Why does the majority not even acknowledge the fact that there are other facts involved, which do not support their conclusion?

Of course any answer I might propose would also be an "assumption" to you, but I'll propose one anyway: because the majority knew quite well that if they did mention or acknowledge any of those other facts, it would be obvious to anyone reading the opinion that their argument was not cogent. My reading of many, many other Supreme Court opinions over the years tells me that that kind of thing happens all the time. At least dissenting opinions are available, though it seems like the ones that really point out fundamental flaws, like this one by Thomas, never actually get any traction.

> The court can totally "assume for the sake of argument"

The court can of course do whatever it pleases; there is no higher court of appeal to overrule them, and the Justices serve for life so they can simply not care what anyone else thinks of their rulings.

That doesn't make it right when they twist the law, or outright ignore it, to produce rulings that are in accordance with their ideological preconceptions. Which, again, is something that happens all the time.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#927

It's interesting reading Thomas' dissent. As per typical Thomas appears to be arguing that it's the letter of the law that matters, whereas it's the majority opinion that the motivations and substance of the law are primary. Hackers and programmers tend to try and read the law like computer code to be "hacked" and exploited based on the letter of the law. So you'd expect us to be more sympathetic to Thomas' view. So…

I think you're reading a different argument. Thomas's argument is circular dreck. It basically says:

1. An important fair use test is market effects. 2. Amazon and others used to give Oracle huge gobs of money because they feared that APIs might be copyrightable and not covered by fair use. 3. After Google called Oracle on this, Amazon and others also started believing it was likely fair use and stopped paying Oracle tens of billions per year. 4. Therefore, Google copying the API was a major adverse market effect. 5. Therefore, copying wasn't fair use.

That's a shit argument. Watch me do a similar analysis in a more obvious way.

1. An important fair use test is market effects. 2. People used to pay gobs of money to watch the movie Transformers 2. 3. In a widely watched review of the film, I showed a 4 second clip of the movie where someone said "I am standing directly beneath the robot's testicles." 4. After this, nobody wanted to pay any money at all to watch Transformers 2. 5. Therefore, there was a major adverse market effect from my copying. 6. Therefore, copying wasn't fair use.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#928
post #925

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only two companies that ever had issues with Java owners were Microsoft thanks to J++ and Google with its Android Java. While the Apache project is not a company, it definitely had issues with Sun over Apache Harmony's Java certification (I'm not confirming or denying that this was part of IBM's proxy wars with Sun). Incidentally, Apache Harmony is what Google used to jumpstart not-officially-Java compatibility…

I love how Google apologists sell Android fragmentation and OEM modifications to AOSP as an improvement over J2ME. Now excuse me while I will compile some stuff in Java 16 with the SIMD preview API.

If you had the displeasure of coding a moderately complex J2ME app - you'd know this it's not mere apologia. While Android fragmentation is terrible (and was worse in the android 1 era), J2ME was at least 10x worse - I haven't met a single person who disagrees with the idea that Android was a massive improvement over J2ME - I noticed not even you are making that argument, you're only chiding me for bringing it up.

Sun could have fixed it by availing Java SE on mobile devices and forcing vendors to implement the same APIs in the same java.smartphone.* packages - (they already had a Java TCK!), but they were not prepared for the smartphone era, sadly. Look at the CLDC[1] classes and tell me how one could write apps that could possibly compete with the iPhone apps in 2007.

1. Sadly - but predictably, Oracle nuked java.net which had documentation on CLDC 2.x/MIDP, I managed to find CLDC 1.1 documentation, the classes are surprisingly sparse, so J2ME was probably worse than I remember. https://docs.oracle.com/javame/config/cldc/ref-impl/cldc1.1/...

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#929
post #91

Oh, I forgot this little apocalypse was hanging over our heads. It's good to see some sanity.

And it's kinda nice to see it come to an end. I wonder if both google and oracle are looking at the bills from their lawyers and thinking about it like the destruction at the somme. It's great for software, it'll be an interesting documentary someday. And congratulations to all the lawyers for making a ton of money.

I doubt that it's a lot of money for these companies.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#930
post #869

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is more like deciding whether there was a murder to begin with before deciding it was self-defense. The thing is that fair use implies the underlying data was copyrighted, but something being copyrighted doesn't imply fair use, which is why I think your analysis is backwards.

> The thing is that fair use implies the underlying data was copyrighted, but something being copyrighted doesn't imply fair use, which is why I think your analysis is backwards. For those who may not understand: in the US, fair use is a defense , not a right. By arguing that your usage was fair use, you are admitting to copyright infringement. Just that your infringement was fair use. The analogy above to self defen…

> By arguing that your usage was fair use, you are admitting to copyright infringement.

No, its actually fairly common to argue both that an act wasn’t infringement but, if it was, it would be fair use.

One way you might do this is to argue that the thing copied was outside the scope of copyright, bur then argue that, if it was covered by copyright, it would be fair use.

That was, in fact, Google’s argument in this very case.

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