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Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

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Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#921

Post by Zelphyr »

dookahku wrote: post #829
CedarMills wrote: post #93

As a believer and someone who attends church regularly, this is sad but not unexpected. From my own personal experience - if the church cannot answer questions clearly, their members will look for answers somewhere else. A lot of churches unfortunately are so elementary in their teaching or turn to "feel good preaching" (see Elevation Church). The longterm effect is that a person ends up being tired of getting the sa…

i mostly got tired of being told i going to burn and choke and scream forever and ever, amen, because i like guys and gals. and if i disagreed, the pastor made sure i got punished. the long term effects wast that this not a healthy thing to tell a young teenager, and it's time for society to move on.

I too got tired of the yelling and the fire-and-brimstone-you’re-gonna-burn-in-hell if you’re not God-fearing. That word: “fear”. They were using it as a tool to manipulate.

Finally, I realized, “Why does God want me to be scared all the time?” Shouldn’t God be allaying my fears, not being the source of them?

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#922

Post by QuarterReptile »

lalaland1125 wrote: post #886
brundolf wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in the exact same place as you about 10 years ago. A key thing for me (I'm still not religious, though I'm religion-adjacent in some ways) was seeing that religion - despite what some would tell you - is at its best when it's not made to be about material truths at all. Its truths, really, are truths about the human condition and how best to live it out. In this sense, even as someone who doesn't believe in met…

The problem is that their teachings also contain a lot of falsehoods. For example, the majority of churches in the US teach that gay sex will cause a person to be tortured for eternity in hell. That teaching is probably wrong and causes so much damage to so many people.

I admit that I have only participated in a minority of all the churches in the US, but I have never attended any church where your statement would be consistent with doctrine on hell, sin, or homosexuality.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#923

Post by hedora »

rmah wrote: post #687
lootsauce wrote: post #606

“Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship—be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble…

In that quote, Wallace is just morphing, conflating, and fudging the definition of the word "worship". He says people "worship" (with a variety of subtly different meanings) a variety of things and then, implies that because we can use the same word, "worship", to describe those activities, they are equivalent. I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless.

“The question is, ” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty. “which is to be master—that’s all.”

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#924

Post by rcoveson »

throw0101a wrote: post #868
rmah wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that quote, Wallace is just morphing, conflating, and fudging the definition of the word "worship". He says people "worship" (with a variety of subtly different meanings) a variety of things and then, implies that because we can use the same word, "worship", to describe those activities, they are equivalent. I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless.

> I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless. It is etymologically correct though: condition of being worthy, dignity, glory, distinction, honor, renown. * https://www.etymonline.com/word/worship From the root worth "worth": weorþ "significant, valuable, of value; valued, appreciated, highly thought-of, deserving, meriting; honorable, noble, of high rank . * ht…

> Thomas Aquinas said that the four typical substitutes for God are wealth, pleasure, power, and honor.

The most typical substitute for Catholic god throughout human history is probably some other god (or group of gods), followed by non-theistic religion, followed by non-religious pragmatic ethics of some sort. I really don't think the quote is relevant outside Thomas' church culture. That's especially true for modern Protestants who might be tempted to think this quote applies to them; you probably don't even know God in Thomas' opinion. I was raised Mormon, personally, and I'm sure the once-human God worshiped by my close ancestors would be an abomination to a Catholic like St. Aquinas.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#925

Post by hedora »

Kinrany wrote: post #818
temp8964 wrote: post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you can elaborate and distinguish different kinds of "worship", your accusation is overblown. Maybe he used this word simply because it was the best choice available to capture and communicate the underlined meaning?

1. To believe in something unobservable by conventional means. 2. To value something over anything else. The word "atheist" clearly implies the first, and he never explains what meaning of the word "atheist" he uses in his "there are no atheists". So this is either a rhetorical trick, or a tautology that defines "atheist" as, roughly, "someone who doesn't value anything that much", but never goes anywhere with this d…

This is useless reasoning. An atheist is someone who is sure there is no God.

An agnostic is someone that admits they don’t know.

A militant agnostic is a person that knows that you don’t know, and wants you to admit it.

The first and third are actual religions / political movements. Claiming the people that ascribe to them are wrong is as offensive as saying all modern members of religion X are self-deluding hypocrites.

Since we’re apparently not using words to mean what they mean, you have no possible rebuttal.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#926

Post by RickJWagner »

filoeleven wrote: post #855
CedarMills wrote: post #93

As a believer and someone who attends church regularly, this is sad but not unexpected. From my own personal experience - if the church cannot answer questions clearly, their members will look for answers somewhere else. A lot of churches unfortunately are so elementary in their teaching or turn to "feel good preaching" (see Elevation Church). The longterm effect is that a person ends up being tired of getting the sa…

The American evangelical movement is particularly rabid, and subscribes overwhelmingly to Christian nationalism. It is entirely too mixed into politics, and is trying to create a theocratic state where “everyone must live like Christians (for my definition of Christian).” One of the high points for me regarding religion in the past couple years was finding The Holy Post podcast. One host is Phil Vischer, AKA Bob the…

Phil Vischer is one talented song-writer.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#927

Post by csisnett »

tenacious_tuna wrote: post #357
umvi wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll have a broken moral system imposed on you either way then, if not by a church than by the shifting values of politics and society. You'll never derive an absolute moral code by yourself, you are forced to accept the changing values of society or risk being ostracized. Most people just allow their morals to shift with society rather than dig in their heels or try to develop an absolute moral code.

> You'll have a broken moral system imposed on you either way I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of how moral systems work, one that is perpetuated by the church. In Christianity, there is a specific "source" of morality, one that's (supposedly) infallible and unquestionable. This leads to problems when the infallible-unquestionable source of morality endorses things like slavery [1]: if it's unquestionab…

Christians do not advocate for slavery. Many laws of the old testament were for the jews living at that moment of human history.

If you tried to establish a slave free society in a small nation sorrounded by slave owner empires how much time do you think that would last?

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#928

Post by geedy »

lalaland1125 wrote: post #886
brundolf wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in the exact same place as you about 10 years ago. A key thing for me (I'm still not religious, though I'm religion-adjacent in some ways) was seeing that religion - despite what some would tell you - is at its best when it's not made to be about material truths at all. Its truths, really, are truths about the human condition and how best to live it out. In this sense, even as someone who doesn't believe in met…

The problem is that their teachings also contain a lot of falsehoods. For example, the majority of churches in the US teach that gay sex will cause a person to be tortured for eternity in hell. That teaching is probably wrong and causes so much damage to so many people.

Religions house many people fearful of what is happening in their lives, the lives of their loved ones. They want explanations for why their expectations and needs are not met. Is it surprising that the powerful would leverage that fear?

Funny how the Hebrew and Greek words for fear have so many other meanings, and yet the church has taught but one for so long when considering the "fear of God".

Seems to contradict "perfect love casts out all fear". Perhaps we would all be better off if we understood "wisdom begins with the awe of God" as the preferred intention.

Because fear based things really suck.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#929

Post by seoaeu »

tenacious_tuna wrote: post #287
CedarMills wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it heavily depends on the church and community. One of the reasons we are staying in our current church is because we're open to a wide community (multi-ethnic) with the same core values. Our kids grow up in this community but at the end of the day, it will be their decision if they decide to no longer attend.

I also grew up in a Christian house and am now atheist--I never understood how people could reconcile "church shopping" for a community that aligns with their views (e.g. not homophobic) with the notion that the core religious concepts are supposed to be infallible. If you disagree with various churches on some doctrinal/sociological point, how do you know that your current church is correct on God existing, or knowi…

> I also grew up in a Christian house and am now atheist--I never understood how people could reconcile "church shopping" for a community that aligns with their views (e.g. not homophobic) with the notion that the core religious concepts are supposed to be infallible.

Couldn't you compare that to deciding between colleges? They all presumably will teach you information that is true, yet the academic culture and their perspectives on the more subjective aspects may differ between them. In academia, this sort of disagreement between schools of thought is generally considered a good thing. Not sure folks are as happy about disagreement when it comes to theology, but there certainly isn't a shortage of it there either.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#930

Post by throw0101a »

teawrecks wrote: post #904
throw0101a wrote: post #868

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless. It is etymologically correct though: condition of being worthy, dignity, glory, distinction, honor, renown. * https://www.etymonline.com/word/worship From the root worth "worth": weorþ "significant, valuable, of value; valued, appreciated, highly thought-of, deserving, meriting; honorable, noble, of high rank . * ht…

Concepts shouldn't be dependent on the language they're conveyed in, though. Try translating the passage to a language without the word "worship", or with 100 sub-distinctions, or introduce a concept like "zen" and his point falls apart. He also introduces a false dichotomy which equates "worship" with "theism". If I "worship" money or sex, no one would seriously say that makes me a "theist". So even if we accept his…

> Concepts shouldn't be dependent on the language they're conveyed in, though.

Well:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

> So even if we accept his warped use of the term "worship", his claim that atheism doesn't exist still doesn't hold up.

It may be useful to go to the full source:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Is_Water

* https://fs.blog/2012/04/david-foster-wallace-this-is-water/

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI

The key phrase is "day-to day trenches of adult life".

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