WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app • Hacker News Board

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#921

Post by rimiform » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 6:33 PM UTC

timvisee wrote: post #758

kar1181 wrote: post #677

It's harder for US folks to understand just how much of a monopoly WhatsApp has in Europe and the UK. Pretty much all of our school and local community communication happens via WhatsApp. I'd change to Signal or Telegram in a heartbeat, but the inertia is so great it's not possible. It pains me to say, but we're getting to the point where companies like Twitter, Facebook and Google need to be treated like utilities o…

Ditched it about 2 years ago. And man, it's so hard! Literally everybody uses it here in the Netherlands as well. I'm getting strange looks every day when people hear I don't use the platform. It's horrendous. I also really fear for the moment where I've to tell a nice girl I met that I don't use the platform, and that we should use X other platform instead. I can imagine that to be a letdown or to be weird. That's i…

As someone who lives in the Netherlands, I feel your pain. I don't think I can get my contacts to really switch to something else, and even if I could, new ones would use WhatsApp anyway.

I think your fear depends strongly on how open-minded/techie the girl is, though: I've used Signal to communicate with all of my Tinder contacts, but I will admit people remark on how it feels like a 'drug deal'.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#922

Post by baq » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 6:49 PM UTC

fart32 wrote: post #822

Shacklz wrote: post #797

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In essence I agree with you, but let's not forget that in most countries, the government has already complete (albeit strongly regulated) control and access to postal services and everything that is sent through them, and I think most citizens (me included) are okay with that as well. Furthermore; I'd much rather have the government spying in my stuff than Facebook selling my data to the highest bidder; at least if t…

> and everything that is sent through them Are you seriously comparing letters and private IM conversations? I don't know about you, but I received/sent maybe 5 letters in last 10 years, none of which were from/to another private entity. > I'd much rather have the government spying I consider this very short sighted and dangerours, but that's your choice. > at least if that were my only two choices Those are not your…

> Are you seriously comparing letters and private IM conversations? I don't know about you, but I received/sent maybe 5 letters in last 10 years, none of which were from/to another private entity.

...because email and IM exist. they used to not exist and people sent paper letters to each other all. the. time.

now there are places and people I need a particular digital post office company to communicate with - and the worst part is, it's because they don't really care and thus force me to risk giving up my data if i want or need (read - am forced to due to life circumstances) to talk with them.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#923

Post by esperent » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

dvtrn wrote: post #375

esperent wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even my mother, in her 70s, who somehow always manages to have a new virus or piece of crapware on her laptop every time I visit, knows about the importance of this thing called "privacy" and had no trouble grasping the idea that everything she shares on FB is recorded and used for advertising. It's not a hard concept, and it's not just tech people who care about it. It doesn't require any knowledge of tech to unders…

Am I off the mark in guessing your mother, in her 70’s has some strong opinions about one Senator Joe McCarthy or Hoover? Has she ever spoken much about living through that period-assuming your family are American? My apologies for the imposition if that’s not the case.

Not American, no idea who Joe McMarthy is, and I doubt my mother does either.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#924

Post by FalconSensei » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

Timpy wrote: post #786

kar1181 wrote: post #677

It's harder for US folks to understand just how much of a monopoly WhatsApp has in Europe and the UK. Pretty much all of our school and local community communication happens via WhatsApp. I'd change to Signal or Telegram in a heartbeat, but the inertia is so great it's not possible. It pains me to say, but we're getting to the point where companies like Twitter, Facebook and Google need to be treated like utilities o…

When I lived in Russia my doctor messaged me via WhatsApp. I'm American so I was a little culture shocked, I don't know if this is standard procedure or anything but it illustrates how ubiquitous WhatsApp is. I'm so anti-Facebook now that it's a part of the way I identify myself, and for all that I can't delete it. I maintain contact with a friend in Germany via Whatsapp or Facebook messenger, and in this case it wou…

For younger friends, I found that they can sometimes install a 2nd messenger, depending on how close you are. Of course, if they already use 2 or 3, you might need to use one that they have.

I would suggest to check if they use Telegram/Line/Kakao/Hangouts, or suggest it to them. They are all closed source, but at least is the lesser evil?

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#925

Post by FalconSensei » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 7:11 PM UTC

TheRealSteel wrote: post #862

kar1181 wrote: post #677

It's harder for US folks to understand just how much of a monopoly WhatsApp has in Europe and the UK. Pretty much all of our school and local community communication happens via WhatsApp. I'd change to Signal or Telegram in a heartbeat, but the inertia is so great it's not possible. It pains me to say, but we're getting to the point where companies like Twitter, Facebook and Google need to be treated like utilities o…

Yep, in Australia I had basically never used WhatsApp. It's barely a thing. (However, Facebook Messenger dominates there, so it's not as if the privacy situation is any better, Facebook Messenger is just a better app/website to use). Here in the UK I am literally required to be on WhatsApp to live in the building I currently live in. I have no choice in this matter. It's just the default messaging service for everyon…

> This "just stop using it" attitude you always get on Hacker News and reddit about facebook and their various messaging platforms baffles me.

Unfortunately, seems that for many people on HN, HN is almost all their online social interaction, + tech people on signal/mastodon. Some don't seem to understand the concept of having family and friends who are not tech-savy (or even hate tech). Or understand the concept of social capital.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#926

Post by stiltzkin » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

Tepix wrote: post #745

holler wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I've moved all my friends and family to Telegram and it's been great. I communicate with them daily since many months.

What percentage of those messages are end-to-end encrypted?

Only secret chats, and seems people using WhatsApp, tiktok or FB do not care

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#927

Post by nabla9 » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 7:26 PM UTC

Zuckerberg while waiting to see if FTC would clear the deal: “We are absolutely not going to change plans around WhatsApp and the way it uses user data. WhatsApp is going to operate completely autonomously,”

>https://www.latimes.com/business/la-xpm-2014-feb-24-la-fi-tn...

>The WhatsApp acquisition has raised concerns among some users that WhatsApp would become, well, more like Facebook. Zuckerberg took the opportunity to quiet those concerns, saying WhatsApp would continue to operate independently from Facebook.

>“We are absolutely not going to change plans around WhatsApp and the way it uses user data. WhatsApp is going to operate completely autonomously,” Zuckerberg said. “They might use people and infrastructure to grow, but the vision is to keep the service exactly the same. They do not keep the content you send, and we’re not going to change that.”

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#928

Post by dan-robertson » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 7:27 PM UTC

h_anna_h wrote: post #907

hkt wrote: post #834

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to explain?

whatsapp and signal have forward secrecy, so if your private key is leaked it means that past conversations can't be decrypted. In reality it does not offer a lot of protection if you don't disable keeping logs (because losing your phone and malware are the only realistic ways of your private key being leaked). In addition the way that they have forward secrecy implemented it means that you have to decrypt every mess…

To add to this: the point of the disappearing messages in signal is to enhance the value of the forward secrecy by not having the record of the messages (so long as both devices are using correct clients and no one is screenshotting messages.

The other feature is deniability: having an encrypted message and it’s decryption doesn’t give you any more information than a screenshot of the message in signal. There isn’t a way for the encrypted message to prove that it was legitimate as the previous keys are revealed in a way that means anyone sniffing the traffic could make a message encrypted with that key.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#929

Post by dan-robertson » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

mnw21cam wrote: post #904

hkt wrote: post #834

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to explain?

No perfect forward security. It's a feature, not a bug.

It doesn’t feel like a feature to me. And neither does the lack of deniability. They both feel like things that leak information that doesn’t need to be leaked.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#930

Post by catdog » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 7:32 PM UTC

toprea wrote: post #771

kar1181 wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is precisely the dilemma in a nutshell. You have a choice but it's a bit like voluntary solitary confinement. Especially during a lockdown.

Just thinking out loud here, as I was considering something like this. I can also not give up the WhatsApp account due to the social pressure. What if I would use a second phone, a cheap one, used only for the whatsapp (and some other essential but privacy invasive apps). I would not have that second phone always with me, but it would provide me access to the social network I need without feeling tracked or providing…

On Android you could use Shelter [1]. Might no be as good as as second phone but it heavily limits the data you expose. You can also freeze the app if you don't use it actively.

The biggest annoyance is that Android only allows having exactly one of those "Work Profiles".

[1] https://f-droid.org/en/packages/net.typeblog.shelter/