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Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.

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Re: Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.

#921

Post by coffeemug »

ablekh wrote: post #659

OK, so the transition from Make America Great Again slogan to Make America Decent Again (and Better) reality is inevitable and welcome. It is easy to get overjoyed by results of the U.S. Presidential Election (and some celebration certainly is in order). Uniting the country is definitely a commendable goal, though it is easier said than done. The election results across all levels clearly illustrate just how divided…

I can get along with people from a different political camp, no problem. My gf is liberal, I'm conservative. We have lively debates about it, but we respect each other and never let politics get in the way of the relationship. It's as simple as that.

But over the last few years friends called me a nazi and a racist, coworkers ostracized me for having unfashionable political views, many people cut contact entirely under the premise that I "support" white supremacy. This isn't some shit you easily forgive, and it isn't something you ever forget.

This wasn't just about politics, or teams, or policy preferences, or red vs blue or whatever. This is people denying your humanity on no grounds whatsoever, and when you point it out they say "well, minorities have always felt this way, so shut up and take it." That's fair enough, but it isn't about groups of people oppressing other groups of people. It's about Bill and John and Sally-- people who used to be friends and colleagues-- treating me like I'm a monster for no reason whatsoever other than a mass psychosis. That's not something you can ever come back from.

Re: Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.

#922

Post by blub »

0xB31B1B wrote: post #854

There are facts here. Things like Covid 19 and climate change are both real and current or impending disasters. The "left" has solutions and the "right" pretends they don't exist. The US right has slipped further and further from understanding of what is actually happening around them and under trump specifically fell into a disinformation black hole. I hope that future repoublican leaders are more based in reality.

No, the "left" doesn't have solutions as can be seen by the current course of the pandemic in Europe.

Re: Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.

#923

Post by dimgl »

namuol wrote: post #885
dorkwood wrote: post #819

There's a famous optical illusion with a spinning silhouette of a dancer. When you look at it, you'll swear it's spinning in one direction -- say, counter-clockwise. In fact, you'll be so sure it's spinning counter-clockwise, that the idea it could be spinning in the opposite direction will seem impossible to you. But if you stare at it long enough, and intently enough, you can make it spin the other way. I've notice…

The difference is that with the spinning dancer optical illusion, there's never a "wrong" way to view it. This isn't always the case with politics, or any kind of view for that matter. It's important to empathize with people you disagree with, but it's just as important that we start with a foundation of agreed upon facts. In other words, reality isn't a point of view.

I completely disagree. I think reality IS a point of view. You are suggesting that there is only one way to think about reality. And that is complete lunacy.

Re: Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.

#924

Post by leptons »

dorkwood wrote: post #819

There's a famous optical illusion with a spinning silhouette of a dancer. When you look at it, you'll swear it's spinning in one direction -- say, counter-clockwise. In fact, you'll be so sure it's spinning counter-clockwise, that the idea it could be spinning in the opposite direction will seem impossible to you. But if you stare at it long enough, and intently enough, you can make it spin the other way. I've notice…

>We think it's the other side that's crazy, but we're all under the same spell.

In this case, one side is provably crazy, and the evidence from our intelligence agencies shows they are dangerous lunatics. The other side wants empathy, equality, science, and truth to rule the day.

I'm not sure how you can just hand-wave that away. Your comment is the same old "both sides" fallacy.

Re: Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.

#926

Post by probably_wrong »

namuol wrote: post #885
dorkwood wrote: post #819

There's a famous optical illusion with a spinning silhouette of a dancer. When you look at it, you'll swear it's spinning in one direction -- say, counter-clockwise. In fact, you'll be so sure it's spinning counter-clockwise, that the idea it could be spinning in the opposite direction will seem impossible to you. But if you stare at it long enough, and intently enough, you can make it spin the other way. I've notice…

The difference is that with the spinning dancer optical illusion, there's never a "wrong" way to view it. This isn't always the case with politics, or any kind of view for that matter. It's important to empathize with people you disagree with, but it's just as important that we start with a foundation of agreed upon facts. In other words, reality isn't a point of view.

> it's just as important that we start with a foundation of agreed upon facts. In other words, reality isn't a point of view.

I don't think these two things are as strongly related as you suggest. Two reasonable people can look at the same problem with the same facts, make reasonable guesses on what the best course is, and yet reach two completely different, reasonable approaches to the problem. Otherwise, we would have already decided which programming language is the best one.

Some situations are more clear cut than others, and I agree that we need to separate facts from opinion better. But for situations as complex as the present and future of a country there might very well not be a "right" way.

"Reality" is not a point of view, but we only experience it through the lens of our personal experiences. No one experiences "true" reality.

Re: Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.

#927

Post by lawnchair_larry »

pqhwan wrote: post #844
dorkwood wrote: post #819

There's a famous optical illusion with a spinning silhouette of a dancer. When you look at it, you'll swear it's spinning in one direction -- say, counter-clockwise. In fact, you'll be so sure it's spinning counter-clockwise, that the idea it could be spinning in the opposite direction will seem impossible to you. But if you stare at it long enough, and intently enough, you can make it spin the other way. I've notice…

Growing up in a country where I was in the ethnic majority, I went through a period of right-wing political bent as a teenager. Then I came to the US, where I found myself in the minority and leaning left. So I feel that I have some personal insight into the mindset that pushes people right. But... maybe it’s that my past right-leaning self was a teenager with half-baked ideas about the world, when I reflect on what…

I would say you’re definitely misunderstanding the right in the US. It has nothing to do with that here. It’s largely the left showing fear and anger, although many seem oblivious to it.

Re: Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.

#928

Post by jariel »

pqhwan wrote: post #844
dorkwood wrote: post #819

There's a famous optical illusion with a spinning silhouette of a dancer. When you look at it, you'll swear it's spinning in one direction -- say, counter-clockwise. In fact, you'll be so sure it's spinning counter-clockwise, that the idea it could be spinning in the opposite direction will seem impossible to you. But if you stare at it long enough, and intently enough, you can make it spin the other way. I've notice…

Growing up in a country where I was in the ethnic majority, I went through a period of right-wing political bent as a teenager. Then I came to the US, where I found myself in the minority and leaning left. So I feel that I have some personal insight into the mindset that pushes people right. But... maybe it’s that my past right-leaning self was a teenager with half-baked ideas about the world, when I reflect on what…

" maybe it’s that my past right-leaning self was a teenager with half-baked ideas about the world, when I reflect on what drove me that way, I cannot point to any coherent, constructive thought, mostly feelings of entitlement and an unwillingness to put myself in the other’s shoes. And that’s what I see in the right-wing of today in the US. "

It seems you had a bad experience with what you felt were 'right wing' ideals but probably had little to do with that, as it would be a pretty intellectually shallow description of any kind of Conservatism (although understandable if one were to equate 'Trump' with 'Conservative' and I don't think many people would in the intellectual sense) and also oddly experientially 'upside down'.

Most 'young people' are progressive, people tend to get more conservative as they get older.

Cynically, one could say it's due to age and myopia, but more likely it has to do with responsibility, perspective, maturity and frankly living through decades and seeing how the world adapts.

Believing in the institutions of family (and monogamy as a commitment to that institution), the objective rule of law, moral obligation through duty of various kinds of community service, prudence, faith as an integral part of worldview, a sense of community that can possibly be expressed through nationalism, the notion that people must act responsibly to the extent they are able and assume responsibility for their actions - these are not ideals of 'entitlement' frankly.

Barack Obama, for example, is a 'Progressive Conservative', and he is in many ways in his own personal life a model 'cultural conservative': religious, church going, mild mannered, straight forward marriage, traditional formal education. He speaks formally and graciously, and is literally a living embodiment of many cultural historical artefacts. He didn't serve in the military but he very well could have, it's totally within his character.

He's not at all that far away from Mitt Romney for example.

Donald Trump is not a 'Conservative' or even 'right wing' really, he's just a jerk who found a 'following' in appealing to the worst qualities of 'bad right wing tropes'.

"In 1999, Trump described himself as "very pro-choice" and said "I believe in choice." (Wikipedia)

Donald Trump was a tough-guy New York 'kind of Democrat' most of his life. He always supported gay marriage. The Clintons were literally at his wedding to Melania.

He's a serial scammer, effectively a polygamist who marries woman purely on the basis of their attractiveness and then dumps them later, cavorts with prostitutes, lies, cheats, steals.

He changes his political views to suit the day, because they don't matter to him - he's just about being rich and popular.

He's managed to convince a lot of people that he is something that he is not, and that's sad, and it's brought out the worst in so many people, and that's what we are seeing today.

Have a look at this Charlie Rose interview with Senator Jeff Flake who's a much more traditional conservative, and FYI detests Donald Trump and 'fell on his sword' rather than go along with the toxicity. [1]

[1] https://charlierose.com/videos/30822

Re: Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.

#929

Post by seanwilson »

On the topic of combatting disinformation, has any government rolled out a plan to educate the public on critical thinking? Did it work?

I'd love it if the names of common logical fallacies were known by everyone and anyone lying to the media or making unsubstantiated claims would be immediately shut down e.g. "that's just a character attack, you're not answering the question".

Re: Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.

#930

Post by Thorncorona »

randomsearch wrote: post #919

[This has been hinted at in various threads but I'm stating it clearly here] A fundamental cause of political polarisation is social media. Tech platforms incentivised by advertising to increase engagement have (probably mostly inadvertently) become manipulation engines that have destabilised democracies. I think at this moment in time the tech community should take pause to consider what we have done. We started wit…

Hint: 'Personalized' algorithms simply mean tailored to one's biases. As in Google will show liberals only liberal articles, and conservatives conservative articles.
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