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Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

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Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#921

Post by lsd5you »

dang wrote: post #524
lsd5you wrote: post #222

Now extend your attitude to religous belief. All the parallels are there, including believing others are inferior (certainly islam). Should they be done as well? You are infact imposing a moral belief system. Once upon a time it used to be wrong to not believe in god. Well similarly you are saying the same about gender differences.

For heaven's sake let's not take this into religious flamewar as well. (I'm sure you didn't mean to, but we know empirically what sort of effect this has.) We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15021907 and marked it off-topic.

Ok, but to me it is as plain as day that there is a double standard here and taking the debate on to that kinda territory is the only way to convince the other side about what they are doing... i.e. shutting down people who don't share their belief (you should believe ...). Once upon a time it was you should believe in god. If it is ok to persecute (or at least censor) people who don't believe in various forms of equality then it is ok to do the same to those who don't believe in a god.

Certainly the fact that some people believe in supernatural things (ridiculous, right?) but are allowed to state these beliefs despite the fact that on the face of it they are far more extraordinary than the extremely plausible some people are better than others in someway due to the differences in their genetics...

The answer is of course that the prevailing pc mainstream does not feel threatened by these daft belief systems (beyond fighting creationism in schools).

Anyway, you may be right that it is currently irreconcileable.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#922

Post by tajen »

rayiner wrote: post #506
nicolashahn wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the correct way to handle it is to drop another refutational evidence bomb attacking his primary points instead of picking the low hanging fruit of claiming it's "too confrontational," "poorly written," "naive," or whatever other secondary problems exist (this is aside from wilfully misrepresenting his claims, which is definitely a bigger problem). Plenty of far more aggressive articles and essays have been writ…

Workplaces are not free speech zones. Employers have a legitimate interest in maintaining internal harmony and making people feel comfortable. There are lots of things that you should be able to say in general that have no place in the office. E.g. you should be able to maintain a blog detailing your sexual escapades, but emailing those descriptions to all your coworkers is quite reasonably grounds for termination.

But Google is a free speech zone for Democrats voters, with company resources dedicated to promoting their point of view.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#923

Post by sonabinu »

nicolashahn wrote: post #253
Blackthorn wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then the correct way to handle it is to drop another refutational evidence bomb attacking his primary points instead of picking the low hanging fruit of claiming it's "too confrontational," "poorly written," "naive," or whatever other secondary problems exist (this is aside from wilfully misrepresenting his claims, which is definitely a bigger problem). This was addressed in the article. This burden has fallen on w…

I'm not talking about a woman having to prove her technical ability to her male coworkers at work because of their prejudices. I know that that's bullshit and I'm sorry they have to do so. I'm talking about handling what Damore claimed in an intellectually honest way. You can't dismiss his points just because you're tired of talking about them (or what you think are the same points you've always been talking about, b…

>Those who disagreed with Damore already won the battle.

It's about the attitude. As a woman in Tech, there are so many men you don't feel like you belong. Men think you are really not very feminine anyway, you are a geek who likes programming. With memos like this more young women are going to rethink a career where they will feel alone and may have their biological identity questioned if they are successful

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#924

Post by peoplewindow »

xenadu02 wrote: post #443
michaelchisari wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to be completely lost on a lot of HN people that Damore's memo was not very scientific at all for the subject matter he was tackling. It was written in a certain intellectual language that often provides a veneer of authority for those who agree with his conclusions and lack the domain knowledge to understand the nuances of why he's wrong. But a lot of these "bio-truth" type of arguments do the same thing. G…

> he tackled a new (to him) science is such an unreasoned and unscientific way So very much this. He presented very few facts and a tiny bit of cherry-picked research. He decided to tackle a big-boy subject with a sixth-grader's game. Pro-tip: Don't dress up your opinions as fact. Pro-tip #2: Don't tackle large or sensitive topics with an air of authority Pro-tip #3: When addressing your colleagues find people who di…

Your response is the kind of response that just builds support for him more.

What have I seen since this memo came out, from people who disagree with it?

His words are offensive. Poorly written. Yes there's science but it was cherry picked. He's a "sixth-grader" and "not a pro". He's wasting work time. He's naive. He's a bad person. He's "alt right". He wrote his memo with an air of authority that he should not have used. He doesn't understand the topic. OK, he's studied biology but not the right kind of biology. He said women suck compared to men. OK, maybe he didn't but he implied it. His memo was too long. Or maybe it was too short, because he cited 'very few facts'. Why is he "evidence bombing" people. He should have known readers would misinterpret it and that's his fault. He shouldn't have given interviews to YouTubers I don't like. OK, he interviewed with the WSJ but he was wearing a dumb t-shirt. He's the face of Silicon Valley sexism. Some women are offended and that's enough to stop discussing it. It's ridiculous that anyone agrees with him. He posted it to the wrong forums. Maybe he posted it to the right forums but he should have known it'd go viral. Why is he so naive? He deserves everything he gets.

These are all excuses to shoot the messenger. I am tired of reading them. They do not advance the debate at all, they are just ways to try and shut it down. And every time I see someone attack James Damore, or his writing style or whatever, instead of talking about the actual issues, I feel these people are losing the debate.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#925

Post by TearsInTheRain »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #907
gnicholas wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One interesting point that hasn't attracted much attention is that the author self-identifies as being on the autism spectrum [1]. If this fact were better-known, would accessibility advocates defend his memo — and possibly even attack its detractors for not being sensitive to his neurological differences? 1: https://www.reddit.com/r/JamesDamore/comments/6thcy3/im_jame...

He uses high neuroticism as part of his argument against female software engineers, high neuroticism is associated with autism. So it seems that even he isn't being sensitive to his own neurological differences.

> He uses high neuroticism as part of his argument against female software engineers

At no point did he argue "against female software engineers"

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#926

Post by Cthulhu_ »

belorn wrote: post #242

A common criticism by each four of the female engineers is how the memo effected them in their job and how they had to prove themselves afterward. This strongly reminds me of about a case a year ago when a kindergarten teacher was tried and charged for rape against several children. After a lot of media attention, many male teachers all over the nation reported to constantly having prove to parents and fellow female…

This so much; after a pedophile case hit in Amsterdam, where a day care worker molested 80 kids, a lot of male daycare and elementary school workers either lost their job or quit from all the distrust. There's rules everywhere that men aren't allowed to be alone with children.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#927

Post by Dylan16807 »

peoplewindow wrote: post #904
Dylan16807 wrote: post #867

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, everyone would call that a bad policy. It's taking a minority that's biased against and making those biases worse. But imagine it was "90% of our hires are white, so we're trying to change that by throwing out some white resumes". You'd get a much more mixed reaction.

Hence the fact that so many people are sick of the racism card and voted for Trump. As you point out, the same behaviour would be called bad policy (and possibly illegal) if it's against blacks but not against whites. That seems fundamentally problematic.

Sometimes local bias can make things fairer overall. The difference is that something anti-black is obviously making things worse, while something anti-white might be helping or hurting in various ways. You have to be intentionally myopic to think all bias is equally unfair. Especially consider how racist you can make desegregation sound, even though it's giving everyone the same treatment: "They're going to start sending most of the kids of one race to much worse schools!".

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#928

Post by [deleted] »

nicolashahn wrote: post #253
Blackthorn wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then the correct way to handle it is to drop another refutational evidence bomb attacking his primary points instead of picking the low hanging fruit of claiming it's "too confrontational," "poorly written," "naive," or whatever other secondary problems exist (this is aside from wilfully misrepresenting his claims, which is definitely a bigger problem). This was addressed in the article. This burden has fallen on w…

I'm not talking about a woman having to prove her technical ability to her male coworkers at work because of their prejudices. I know that that's bullshit and I'm sorry they have to do so. I'm talking about handling what Damore claimed in an intellectually honest way. You can't dismiss his points just because you're tired of talking about them (or what you think are the same points you've always been talking about, b…

[deleted]

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#929

Post by boobsbr »

alecco wrote: post #635

Every thread about the Google Memo in the past weeks got flagged (?) promptly out of the homepage but this one stays at the top with just 400 points. I wonder what's the difference. 1695 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14952787 754 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15009759 590 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14968626 448 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14959601 And many more. Then people wonder how…

What's the relation with the Trump election, if you please?
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