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Time to Take a Stand

blog.samaltman.com

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Re: Time to Take a Stand

#921

Post by infinite8s »

strken wrote: post #631
microtonal wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very important people - calling everyone who voted for Trump a racist homophobe Maybe they are not racist homophobes, but they voted a racist homophobe and his cabal into power. They knew that his was one of the expected outcomes. Voting is powerful and you are (co-)responsible for the outcome. If you don't want racist executive orders, don't vote for a racist. Simple as that.

Who do you vote for if you're a working class parent and you really, really, really don't want your children to earn less than you did at their age, but would prefer not to vote for a leader that the media seems to think is racist and homophobic? Because that's a tough decision to make. You might decide that the media is wrong, you might decide that your kids are the most important thing, or you might decide that pri…

You are also assuming that the racist homophobe will do anything to make sure your children earn more than you did at their age.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#922

Post by MichaelGG »

buyx wrote: post #674
MichaelGG wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>racist Explain how the EO is racist. Blocking a country is not racist. If the EO was "Persians are not allowed in" that'd be different. And homophobe? A gay man spoke at the RNC to huge applause (even made a comment on how getting upset over transgender bathroom use is pointless). These kind of careless accusations just make everyone ignore real charges of racism.

Blocking a country is not racist. If the EO was "Persians are not allowed in" that'd be different. Indeed."Muslim" is not a race. Perhaps a better word would be "bigoted" or "discriminatory" not "racist"? If we are going to be splitting hairs: are Persians a race, or are they an ethnicity?

Where in the EO does Muslim come into play?

And of course it's discriminatory! That's sort of, like, the whole point. All the existing immigration policies are discriminatory. That's why I (Canadian) can go basically anywhere, but someone from Central America can't.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#923

Post by johnny22 »

jdoliner wrote: post #368
jbhatab wrote: post #108

He clearly stated he would make strong policies regarding immigration. The American people voted for him knowing this and he's following through on it. I'd say “Protecting the Nation From Foreign Terrorist Entry Into the United States” is a fitting name given everything he has said up to this point. Whether or not you agree, this looks like the democratic process to me. Taking action against his policies after electi…

This is the unfortunate reality that no one wants to face. Trump ran on an anti-immigration platform and won. Contrary to what Sam says I don't think that most people voted for Trump for different reasons. Some did, but for many the anti-immigrant message was what resonated with them. Are these people racist? Probably. Is a Muslim ban repugnant? Yup. But that's how our Democracy works isn't it? Politicians campaign o…

We've already been through this before though. Interracial marriage was banned far and wide through democracy, but was overturned by the courts. Same with marriage equality. This has been seen as a feature of the system, not a bug.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#924

Post by johnny22 »

jdoliner wrote: post #368
jbhatab wrote: post #108

He clearly stated he would make strong policies regarding immigration. The American people voted for him knowing this and he's following through on it. I'd say “Protecting the Nation From Foreign Terrorist Entry Into the United States” is a fitting name given everything he has said up to this point. Whether or not you agree, this looks like the democratic process to me. Taking action against his policies after electi…

This is the unfortunate reality that no one wants to face. Trump ran on an anti-immigration platform and won. Contrary to what Sam says I don't think that most people voted for Trump for different reasons. Some did, but for many the anti-immigrant message was what resonated with them. Are these people racist? Probably. Is a Muslim ban repugnant? Yup. But that's how our Democracy works isn't it? Politicians campaign o…

We've already been through this before though. Interracial marriage was banned far and wide through democracy, but was overturned by the courts. Same with marriage equality. This has been seen by many as a feature of the system, not a bug.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#925

Post by infinite8s »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #294
oh_sigh wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you rather have a job and a racist in power, or no job and a person isn't racist in power? I believe you are operating on a higher level of the Maslow hierarchy of needs than many people if your primary concern is about equality, and not about food, shelter, and a job.

That wasn't the questions. It was: Do you want the possibility of a job? Does it matter if your disadvantaged, Muslim, first-generation American friend - or his/her parents - gets the shaft so that you can have a happy home and a job? Does having a job mean that I have to be careful not to be out in the sun because then I look arab? With good reason, too - my grandmother was first generation american. Her parents wer…

And those questions are making the big assumption that the person claiming they can bring back those jobs will actually be able to. You can't fight economics...

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#926

Post by infinite8s »

microtonal wrote: post #201
oh_sigh wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you rather have a job and a racist in power, or no job and a person isn't racist in power? I believe you are operating on a higher level of the Maslow hierarchy of needs than many people if your primary concern is about equality, and not about food, shelter, and a job.

But the choice was not racist+job or non-racist+job. Also, let's keep in mind that a demographic within the population with the highest unemployment will not be helped at all. I realize that the democratic candidate was less than ideal.

People keep saying that the democratic candidate was less than ideal. So what would have been ideal? Who or what would have been your dream candidate for the 2016 election?

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#927

Post by infinite8s »

mrchicity wrote: post #434
Scirra_Tom wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, but 52% is a pretty scary number. I'm still curious for a source on the statement that "most of them voted for him for reasons other than the promise of a Muslim ban". If big numbers did vote for him on that reason then there's a cancer running deep in USA's society that trying to brush under the rug isn't really going to help.

In a two-party system, few people agree with every policy in someone's platform. I voted for Clinton but disagreed with many of her views and actions. Oftentimes people are voting based on a single very important issue or for the lesser of two evils. I'm curious why you think supporting a ban like this is a "cancer"? It's heavy-handed and misguided, but religion is ideology. People see heinous acts worldwide perpetra…

It makes them bigoted or evil because people likely said the exact same things about their ancestors (unless they are descended from native americans or the original british colonists)

http://www.ushistory.org/us/25f.asp

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/racist-...

Quoting the first line of the Atlantic article:

"There was a time in America when the Irish were characterized as apes, Italians as street filth, and Chinese as parasitic locusts."

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#928

Post by thedevil »

infinite8s wrote: post #919
thedevil wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we definitely should not pander to them. I actually think most people (Trump supporters, you, me, everyone) vote mostly based on identity (liberal/conservative, religion, race, open-minded, well-mannered, etc). I think Trump supporters mostly voted for the party that they most identified with, the guy they thought was on their side. And I think you did the same. (I see myself as unaligned and open-minded, thus…

Do you think its possible to change their minds?

Yes. If it weren't possible to influence people's political positions, I think we wouldn't have campaigns or other political movements or organizations.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#929

Post by [deleted] »

infinite8s wrote: post #919
thedevil wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we definitely should not pander to them. I actually think most people (Trump supporters, you, me, everyone) vote mostly based on identity (liberal/conservative, religion, race, open-minded, well-mannered, etc). I think Trump supporters mostly voted for the party that they most identified with, the guy they thought was on their side. And I think you did the same. (I see myself as unaligned and open-minded, thus…

Do you think its possible to change their minds?

[deleted]

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#930

Post by idlewords »

cpr wrote: post #742
idlewords wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now the most important thing you can do is donate money. Consider starting here: ACLU (state offices especially) Council on American-Islamic Relations (state offices especially) National Immigration Law Center

Investigate CAIR before giving any money: http://www.anti-cair-net.org/AntiCAIRDataBase.html

I can personally vouch for CAIR-MA, CAIR-CA, and CAIR-NY.
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