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Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

reuters.com

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Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#911

Post by re-thc »

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #810
w0m wrote: post #785

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Distillation is NOT an attack. From the article - > 28.8 million exchanges with Claude through almost 25,000 fraudulent accounts wouldn't that be considered an attack? Not sure what I'm missing here.

That's violating TOS, spamming, possibly a DDOS, but the distillation in and of itself is not an attack it's just using the model. Like the difference between scraping a site with one or two active connections vs thousands. It's not the scraping that is an attack, it is how they are going about it

> That's violating TOS, spamming, possibly a DDOS

As in distributed distillation of service?

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#912

Post by pseudony »

msabalau wrote: post #909
onetrickwolf wrote: post #760

“Distillation attack” are we joking here. If anything these models should be compelled to be public since they have been trained off public data. What an absurd overreach to call this an attack. It’s clear they are scapegoating national security and China at this point to build an anti-competitive moat. I generally really like Anthropic’s work and models but stuff like this scares me for the future. We are positionin…

There's probably at 10-15% percent chance of a war between the US and China over the next 10 years. Maybe better than even chance of a militarized crisis that might have led to war, but somehow de-escalates. Regardless of how sad late stage capitalism makes you, or how outrageous one claims to find "hypocrisy", any national security argument about limiting Chinese AI capability stands on it's own, at least for nation…

As a third party I would rather be happy about the way Chinese labs are acting in the here and now while US labs first masquerade as a public good, then turn around, bail on all promises of open AI, turn into a corporation and attempt to own the world while its runner-up is trying to scaremonger people into buying their product.

I know most Americans are fed a steady diet of “evil China” and China MAY have issues. But on the AI front they are heaps better. Even if everything got closed tomorrow, we have a plethora of good models we can inspect and tweak while from the US labs we have… a single old 120b model ?

And with the way the US is treating its allies, maybe a bunch of us are quite content with a more even match rather than US hegemony.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#913

Post by ozgrakkurt »

threethirtytwo wrote: post #856
_fat_santa wrote: post #817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If anything these models should be compelled to be public since they have been trained off public data I'm starting to come around to this idea TBH. For a while my position was: "these companies have invested billions into training these models, therefore they should be able to control them and profit off them" but looking deeper at where they got their training data, my view is starting to shift. IMHO I feel like…

I'm not taking sides here but this situation is not so black and white and it has always been the darker side of capitalism. The concept of Intellectual property exists not because it's fair but because it creates incentive to make said "intellectual property" exist. If intellectual property can be instantly copied by a competitor... why would I spend a dime to even create such a thing? I want to profit off of what I…

This perfectly explains why current LLMs should be illegal in an actual capitalist market.

Why should anyone publish anything if it can be stolen with impunity? Is the value of these LLMs even remotely close to the amount of value they stole and the amount of value they will detract from economy because people will be more hesitant to publish anything now?

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#914

Post by matheusmoreira »

throwawayffffas wrote: post #904

"illicitly", Unless they broke in your servers and took your model weights it's not illegal. Hell, you are the guys that pirated all the worlds works, that was actually illegal.Breaking your terms of service is not illegal regardless how much you would like it to be. And lets not forget they paid you for the tokens.

> Unless they broke in your servers and took your model weights it's not illegal.

Even if they did, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Leaking frontier model weights after the oligarchs spent their trillions training it is the best possible outcome for humanity. Whoever does that is a hero, the sort of person people used to write cyberpunk books about.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#915

Post by matheusmoreira »

aftbit wrote: post #692

So when Anthropic uses millions of copyrighted works to train their model, that's fair use, but when Alibaba uses Anthropic's model to train their own, that's infringement?

Rules for thee but not for me.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#916

Post by skarz »

wg0 wrote: post #511
amazingamazing wrote: post #15

Distillation is fundamentally impossible to protect against. All you can do is slow them down. Change my view. Eventually these Chinese companies will release some extension like Honey, which will sit on top real, non-Chinese clients and send everything to China anyway. It's over.

It's just like web scraping is impossible to guard against. Change my mind.

Put your site behind Cloudflare, enable Bot Fight. Done.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#917

Post by zoexiong »

irlib wrote: post #174
tristanj wrote: post #25

Here's what is happening: Chinese resellers are offering Claude tokens at 70-90% below official Anthropic API prices. They achieve this by reselling capacity from pooled Claude Max accounts, payments fraud, and also reselling the model output & reasoning chains to various Chinese labs. They are subsidizing model access in exchange for user logs and reasoning traces, which they then sell as training data, allowing the…

Where are you getting cheap GLM5.2? It is about 1/3 the price of Opus, which is not what I would call cheap.

Hugging Face plus Z.ai API makes sense to me. Due to creators get paid, they can keep building better models, and the local-running community benefits from that over time.

AIhubmix currently is the cheapest rather than openrouter.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#919

Post by freejazz »

xdennis wrote: post #301
protimewaster wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The AI companies seem to take the viewpoint that everything on the internet is free, except their stuff. It's okay to hammer some random website with AI crawlers, ignoring robots.txt, and causing bandwidth costs to skyrocket. But if you cost an AI provider money with your data acquisition practices, well, that's just clearly unacceptable.

That's one aspect, which is a bit of a gray zone. But Anthropic trained on pirated books. That is explicitly illegal.

They didn't train on the books and that court only found that the pirating was illegal anyway.
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