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Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

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Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#911

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a teacher the exact opposite. Completely ruthless about you doing the work, but patient and kind as long as it got done- And very pleasent.

That was my 8th & 9th grade Latin teacher. Failure was not an option. I can still decline nouns and demonstratives 50 years later.

I realized that 20 years after my last Latin class, I can sight read it pretty well, until I hit the word “ut” then everything falls apart.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#912
post #741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having just shipped the kiddo into the real world, she's leaning liberal arts (her and her mom suck at math), but she has a benefit neither her mom or I had - EU deal citizenship. She's going to do a year here to figure things out - she's also been thinking about Europe. University in Europe, for undergrad, is different than the US. I think the large class model and a barrier of exams to advance makes sense in Europe…

No one has to suck at math. Any human can learn the majority of skills.

I think it is a matter of focus and aptitude. It also depends on instruction and approach. I took more math than I care to remember in college. Physics made calculus click. Upper division physics classes made some transform math confusing. David Huffman (yes, that one) taught a class in the CS department covering the same thing - from first principles - it made sense.

When the kiddo was dealing with common core stuff, I threw up my hands ... the approach made no sense, but sold text books.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#914
post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that just like students, teachers are not all created equal. My 3rd grade teacher wanted to fail me for “discipline” problems. In reality, she simply didn’t like me; I had no discipline complaints in other years. I had undiagnosed ADHD and was gifted. She did not know how to deal with that, and actively disliked me. Activist teachers are also a thing.

I'm not completely convinced that "ADHD" isn't just the natural state of kids who are bored most of the time.

I voted you up, not because I think ADHD is a myth or doesn't exist, but because I think it's massively overdiagnosed, and what many people in popular culture call ADHD is often normal, even healthy, behavior.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#916
post #4

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Professors who fail large swathes of their classes get in trouble.

professors who don't/can't cover their curriculum also get in trouble. if i had to dedicate half of my classes to reteaching things the students are required to know before taking my class, i would not cover what i am supposed to, which then has a knock-on effect to the classes that my class is a prereq for. whenever i have had a larger-than-normal percent of my students failing, i am provided an opportunity to expla…

> larger-than-normal percent

it seems to me this is a ratcheting effect. If a larger than average is discouraged, even implicitly by being called to a meeting, people will target under the average. Repeat this and you'll quickly find the average plummeting

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#917
post #843

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You mean like bending SNAP data to somehow fit your picture of what poor people are like?

Or making wild generalizations about how men in Oregon only work in farming and fishing when those industries actually only comprise less than 10% or the workforce. I don't think folk should bother debating with this user, I don't think they're conversing in good faith.

It seems like the entirety of his experience of Oregon is within a 10 mile radius of Coos Bay.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#918
post #838

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problems are deeper. The problems are at school level. The variance in the level of schooling in US is huge compared to Italy in my experience. This factor means that school exams are not a good indicator of competitiveness. Furthermore, the social systems in Italy mean that the failure is not that problematic especially for kids from poor backgrounds. And therefore, risk of depression etc was much lower.…

> The problems are at school level. Imho the problems are even deeper: they’re at culture level. But that’s where things get controversial, so i’ll hint at the problems and stop here.

(The two sibling comments confirm i was right at only hinting at the problem and avoiding the quarrels. No one of the two commenters is trying to engage in a healthy and honest conversation. That’s another sign of a… cultural issue)

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#919

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? While it seems obvious that some students should be redirected to remedial classes, the evidence is that very few students made it past those courses. IOW, the obvious solution wasn't working. Being an engineer, my instinct would be to fix those classes so that they did work. However, legislators think at a different level and reasoned that the remedial classes constituted a false promise that costs students d…

I have been really puzzled by this situation and haven't been able to stop thinking about it since last night. I spent a long time chatting with an LLM and reading articles published by community college instructors and university faculty in California, and looking for examples in other states, the research (in California and other contexts) that examine the related problems with remedial courses. I've learned a lot,…

Fixing them is completely doable, and the solutions are obvious, as you point out. But the political will to accept the obvious consequences just isn't there.

Meaning, the demographic distribution of students taking (and re-taking) the entrance exam is likely to not match the distribution of the state as a whole.

Rather than seeing this as a positive because it leads to the advancement of those who would be otherwise held back from high paying jobs, it will be denounced in coded language.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#920
post #686
post #266

It's weird to me that standardized tests were demonized as anti-equity rather than GPA. You can always get extra help with homework, projects, etc. if you have a better funded support system. Single subject/unit tests in high school are also much more narrow in scope and easier to prepare for. A standardized test on the other hand is so wide in breadth that raw abilities will shine more.

> It's weird to me that standardized tests were demonized as anti-equity rather than GPA I think it's because socioeconomic status is much more correlated with tests (40% of variance explained) than grades ( https://cshe.berkeley.edu/news/family-background-accounts-40... https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qeeeGJ4100oM-mK0g-1Z34VqEaF... I'm surprised the correlation between SES and grades is so low.

I'm also surprised it's so low, because I feel that doesn't align with my anecdotal experience. Perhaps part of the problem is they only did the analysis on "...for freshman admission between 1994 and 2011 for whom complete data were available on all covariates". Perhaps wealthy families are less likely to submit family income data, or the income data is somehow related to FAFSA, in which case wealthy families will be under represented. Also note, they used family income as a proxy for SES, which is understandable but also not completely correct. Many wealthy people have no-to-low income for tax purposes.
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