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GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

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Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#911

Post by tranq_cassowary »

ForHackernews wrote: post #538
palata wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think MicroG - which provides dummy no-op implementations of Google Play tracking APIs, and allows you to select alternative Location Providers and notification backends - is a better option than running first-party Google software. microG still forwards the requests to the Google servers. Not sure what you mean by "tracking APIs"? microG is a reverse-engineered, open source implementation of a subset of Play Ser…

I'm trying to say the same thing I said up at the top: GOS's approach to privacy is obtuse. They deliberately conflate security with privacy (you even write "secure/private" as though they're the same thing) in a way that does a disservice to users. My opinion is that GOS is very successful at its own stated goal of having an extremely secure mobile OS that rolls out patch updates quickly. I think it's far less succe…

> They deliberately conflate security with privacy (you even write "secure/private" as though they're the same thing) in a way that does a disservice to users.

That's not really true. In fact, the way you are presenting it, as if they were seperate is doing a disservice to the reality and therefore to the users.

You can't have privacy without security. Security is what enforces the privacy. If your system is insecure, privacy controls can be bypassed.

> My opinion is that GOS is very successful at its own stated goal of having an extremely secure mobile OS that rolls out patch updates quickly.

GOS' "own stated goal" is privacy, security and usability. The main reason the project is made is to give people privacy, and the reality is that in order to give privacy you need strong security. Usability is also striven for by trying to match other mobile OSes in app compatability and accessibility features (the latter being a current work in progress with TTS and STT coming soon).

> I think it's far less successful at protecting user privacy because — as you even admit, many/most of them will find their phones unusable with vanilla GOS and immediately follow the GOS user guide to install Google Play and help them securely upload their personal data to the world's biggest adtech firm.

Many people are able to use their phone fine without installing Google Play. It depends on choices people make. If you use a different set of apps not relying on Play, it's perfectly possible to use it. If you care so much, just change the apps you use. Also installing Google Play doesn't equate to "securely uploaidng their personal data to the world's biggest adtech firm". Again totally misunderstanding how the app sandbox works.

> I think iodéOS and /e/OS are more in line with what I want from a mobile OS.

Unclear what you want. If you want something aligning to your vibes and ideology, probably. If you want privacy, not really.

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#912

Post by tranq_cassowary »

realusername wrote: post #825
Aachen wrote: post #794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're linking to Google Play's documentation, not Android code itself that GrapheneOS etc. are built upon You can find hardware identifiers exposed by Linux distributions more than by Android itself. That Google adds a nice sauce on top... yeah that's a sorry state of affairs, but an optional layer if you don't use the stock OS if it ships with Google Play edit: but I appreciate looking it up nonetheless! I wasn't c…

You can't really use Android without the Google Play anyways so that's a moot point, none of the popular apps will work. Google Play is very much a core part of the Android OS. Even EOS and GrapheneOS realized that themselves.

You can perfectly fine use it without, many people do. If you can tell us what issues you exactly bump into when trying to use the phone without Play, feel free to share, we might be able to suggest you some apps or workflows to work around the issues you are having.

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#913

Post by tranq_cassowary »

ForHackernews wrote: post #259
ramon156 wrote: post #18

Does anyone have a good grasp of the differences between GOS and /e/OS? I'm buying a Fairphone soon and was wondering what both are like

The main difference is that GrapheneOS prioritizes security hardening first and foremost (above usability or compatibility). /e/OS focuses on privacy (i.e. reducing data leakage to adtech) and usability over security. To put it concretely, GrapheneOS recommends running all the proprietary Google apps in a locked "sandbox" so they can't read data on the phone outside the sandbox -- but obviously Google still gets to s…

> /e/OS focuses on privacy (i.e. reducing data leakage to adtech)

/e/OS literally sends STT data straight to OpenAI...

/e/OS uses priviliged MicroG, which connects to Google for some of its functionality

/e/OS doesn't keep up with updates properly, making its security suffer, making yoru phone easier to compromise, increasing the likelihood of amongs other things sandbox escabes which open up possibilities to data leakage.

> GrapheneOS recommends running all the proprietary Google apps in a locked "sandbox"

They don't recommend this. The user can choose to do so.

> but obviously Google still gets to see everything you do in their apps

Indeed, obviously. So, obviously, also the case on any other OS.

> e/OS tries to provide [largely but not entirely FLOSS] alternatives (e.g. their own Maps app, their own email, their own calendar) that make your phone usable out of the box without Google software.

You can install apps you need on GrapheneOS providing those alternatives yourself. Android has a large FOSS app eecosystem.

Much of the things /e/OS bundles for services are just using Nextcloud and their services have been very unreliable in the past, making people unable to access their data for months. Also, Nextcloud isn't end to end encrypted.

GrapheneOS also makes their own apps, like Vanadium, PDF viewer and Secure Camera.

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#914

Post by xteix »

onli wrote: post #38
ramon156 wrote: post #18

Does anyone have a good grasp of the differences between GOS and /e/OS? I'm buying a Fairphone soon and was wondering what both are like

GrapheneOS claims to be a lot more secure, having additional hardening. See https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm - keep in mind that it is not an independent comparison, the Graphene guys directly feed what this table is supposed to say in the issue tracker, https://github.com/eylenburg/eylenburg.github.io/issues/ . But it gives a good representation of the state of the ROMs according to Graphene. In re…

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Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#915

Post by dlcarrier »

goda90 wrote: post #541
dlcarrier wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't need to be logged on to a Google account, and it supports locally storing map data and generating routes, so you could turn on network access, download local maps, block network access, then use it for navigation without it calling home.

There's also value in live traffic and road closure information.

That's a more difficult one, because that traffic data itself is aggregated from location sharing.

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#916

Post by ForHackernews »

strcat wrote: post #905
ForHackernews wrote: post #856

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I find it very hard to reconcile claims like "repeated swatting attacks aimed at killing our team members...Child Sex Abuse Material..." with the proof offered being a blog post that makes the fairly anodyne (especially read in light of this comment) case that you are an extremely paranoid person whose paranoia leads you to extreme judgements that may harm users. I…

> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It's your claims which are extraordinarily and have been thoroughly debunked. You're directly engaging in bullying with baseless personal attacks. You make false accusations about us while you're actively engaging in those things. > I find it very hard to reconcile claims like "repeated swatting attacks aimed at killing our team members...Child Sex Abuse Material…

Please print out this comment and the one that preceded it and show it to a friend you trust to be honest. You should seek therapy, and it will make you a more effective technical leader.

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#917

Post by Aachen »

chenxiaolong wrote: post #818
Aachen wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, and here I thought Google was one of the few manufacturers left that simply support it on their hardware. So it depends on some cloud service being alive. Do you know if it's the same for Fairphone or Shiftphone? Or is there another manufacturer that doesn't require this? I've recently bought a new phone so it's not relevant for me anymore but when I next go looking, it can factor into it. As it was, I had Googl…

It's probably worth pointing out that the online process is one time and it installs a token that permanently lets the setting be toggled offline afterwards. This persists across factory resets and flashing any OS. I wrote more details about it works under the hood here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35856171

Epic level comment! Very interesting to read about in this technical detail, thanks for taking the time to write it up.

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#918

Post by onli »

tranq_cassowary wrote: post #906
onli wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still haven't seen what you describe, the behaviour of other projects. And I dont believe it without proof (since it was claimed so often by GOS without proof being shown, or in some cases with it obviously not existing). For the security thing: It is wrong to claim that an unlocked bootloader completely breaks the android security model. If anything, it breaks one specific aspect, one that doesn't matter for many…

https://mastodon.social/@gael/115067300718940033 https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/1996683131358007487#m here you go

The nitter thread shows the exact behaviour the article is complaining about, proving it right (at least the toned-down version). Highlighting the abusive behaviour of one person in the GOS project that actually does happen isn't an attack against GOS, and certainly not wrong.

It's exactly the problem: You have one bully here that claims everything criticizing his abhorent behaviour is a libelous attack, thus he attacks other people and projects that attack him, spinning substantiated criticism against him as "projects driving a campaign against GOS". And the Graphene followers believe him. It's absurd.

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#919

Post by fsflover »

tranq_cassowary wrote: post #848
fsflover wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my understanding, it's not the OS that makes it a toy but the hardware. I guess something with open schematics (Librem 5, Pinephone) should be better, or an open-hardware device like Precursor.

There is no way to know whether the phone you buy corresponds to the open schematics that are published. It's not verifiable like with software.

This doesn't sound right to me. Not an expert, but I saw many discussions confirming that this is possible.

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#920

Post by [deleted] »

drnick1 wrote: post #707
gib444 wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah Pixels are poor quality. Mine developed the common pink vertical line display issue after 18 months The flag ship should not be more than $500

> The flag ship should not be more than $500 Which is (almost) the case during sales. The P10 was on sale for $599 not long ago, and you could buy a 9a for little more than $300. That is extremely good value compared to any iThing repoted your every move to Apple.

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