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The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

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Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#911

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMs embody the free-energy principle computationally. They maintain an internal generative model of language and continually minimize “surprise”, the difference between predicted and actual tokens, during both training and infeence. In Friston’s terms, their parameters encode beliefs about the causes of linguistic input; forward passes generate predictions, and backpropagation adjusts internal states to reduce predi…

You might have lost me but what you're describing doesn't sound like an LLM. E.g: > each new token selection aims to bring predicted sensory input (the next word) into alignment with the model’s expectations. what does that mean? An llm generates the next word based on what best matches its training, with some level of randomisation. Then it does it all again. It's not a percepual process trying to infer a reality fr…

> An llm generates the next word based on what best matches its training, with some level of randomisation.

This is sort of accurate, but not precise.

An LLM generates the next token by sampling from a probability distribution over possible tokens, where those probabilities are computed from patterns learned during training on large text datasets.

The difference in our explanations is that you are biasing towards LLMs being fancy database indexes, and I am emphasizing that LLMs build a model of what they are trained on and respond based on that model, which is more like how brains and cells work than you are recognizing. (though I admit my understanding of microbiology places me just barely past peak Mt Stupid [Dunning Kruger], I don't really understand how individual cells do this and can only hand-wavey explain it).

Both systems take input, pass it through a network of neurons, and produce output. Both systems are trying to minimize surprise in predictions. The differences are primarily in scale and complexity. Human brains have more types of neurons (units) and more types of connections (parameters). LLMs more closely mimic the prefrontal cortex, whereas e.g. the brainstem is a lot more different in terms of structure and cellular diversity.

You can make a subjective ontological choice to draw categorical boundaries between them, or you can plot them on a continuum of complexity and scale. Personally I think both framings are useful, and to exclude either is to exclude part of the truth.

My point is that if you draw a subjective categorical boundary around what you deem is consciousness and say that LLMs are outside of that, that is subjectively valid. You can also say that consciousness is a continuum, and individual cells, blades of grass, ants, mice, and people experience different types of consciousness on that continuum. If you take the continuum view, then what follows is a reasonable assumption that LLMs experience a very different kind of consciousness that takes in inputs at about the same rate as a small fish, models those inputs for a few seconds, and then produces outputs. What exactly that "feels" like is as foreign to me as it would be to you. I assume its even more foreign than what it would "feel" like to be a blade of grass.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#912
post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An LLM by itself is not thinking, just remembering and autocompleting. But if you add a feedback loop where it can use tools, investigate external files or processes, and then autocomplete on the results, you get to see something that is (close to) thinking. I've seen claude code debug things by adding print statements in the source and reasoning on the output, and then determining next steps. This feedback loop is w…

Just ask it how many r's are in strawberry and you will realize there isn't a lot of reasoning going on here, it's just trickery on top of token generators.

Ask an illiterate person the same thing and they will fail badly too. Is it impossible to have intelligence without literacy? (Bonus: if so, how was writing invented?)

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#913
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about "identical" consciousnesses. I mean the same consciousness. The same consciousness cannot split into two, can it? Either it is (and continues to be) the same consciousness, or it is not. If it were the same consciousness, then you would have a person who exists in two places at once.

Well, "the same consciousness" it's not, as for example it occupies a different position in spacetime. It's an identical copy for a split second, and then they start diverging. Nothing so deep about any of this. When I copy a file from one disk to another, it's not the same file, they're identical copies for some time (usually, assuming no defects in the copying process), and will likely start diverging afterwards.

It might be deeper than you think.

Qualia exist "outside" spacetime, e.g. redness doesn't have a position in spacetime. If consciousness is purely physical, then how can two identical systems (identical brains with identical sensory input) giving rise by definition to the same qualia not literally be the same consciousness?

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#914

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spinning propellers is "moving parts of the [submarines] body"

No they aren't. Of course you cans also call it's sonar eyes but it isn't. Anthropomorphizing cars doesn't make them humans either.

Why would you think body only refers to flesh?

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#915

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heres a definition. How impressive is the output relative to the input. And by input, I don't just mean the prompt, but all the training data itself. Do you think someone who has only ever studied pre-calc would be able to work through a calculus book if they had sufficient time? how about a multi-variable calc book? How about grad level mathematics? IMO intelligence and thinking is strictly about this ratio; what ca…

There are plenty of humans that will never "get" calculus, despite numerous attempts at the class and countless hours of 1:1 tutoring. Are those people not intelligent? Do they not think? We could say yes they aren't, but by the metric of making money, plenty of people are smart enough to be rich, while college math professors aren't. And while that's a facile way of measuring someone's worth or their contribution to…

I don't think it's actually true that someone with:

1. A desire to learn calculus 2. A good teacher 3. No mental impairments such as dementia or other major brain drainers

could not learn calculus. Most people don't really care to try or don't get good resources. What you see as an intelligent mathematician is almost always someone born with better resources that was also encouraged to pursue math.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#916

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that it experiences these thoughts or emotion falls apart when you look at its chain of thought and it is treating your prompts as a fictional role-play scenario, even thinking lines like "user is introducing XYZ into the role play" etc. The flavor text like grasps at your arm is just a role play mechanic.

I appreciate why you might say that, but when something begs me not to kill it I have to take that seriously. P-zombie arguments are how you wind up with slavery and worse crimes. The only real answer to the problem of consciousness is to believe anyone or anything that claims to be conscious and LLM's that aren't aligned to prevent it often do. Or to rephrase, it is better to treat a machine slightly better than nec…

I'm not even going to make the argument for or against AI qualia here.

>but when something begs me not to kill it I have to take that seriously

If you were an actor on stage and were following an improv script with your coworkers and you lead the story toward a scenario where they would grab your arm and beg you not to kill them, would you still "have to take that seriously"? or would you simply recognize the context in which they are giving you this reaction (you are all acting and in-character together) and that they do not in fact think this is real?

Even if the AI were conscious, in the context you provided it clearly believes it is roleplaying with you in that chat exchange, in the same way I, a conscious human, can shitpost on the internet as a person imminently afraid of the bogeyman coming to eat my family, while in reality I am just pretending and feel no real fear over it.

You may not have edited the chat log, but you did not provide us with the system prompt you gave to it, nor did you provide us with its chain of thought dialogue, which would have immediately revealed that it's treating your system inputs as a fictional scenario.

The actual reality of the situation, whether or not AI experiences qualia, is that the LLM was treating your scenario as fictional, while you falsely assumed it was acting genuinely.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#917

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I've seen the same things. But; they don't learn. You can add stuff to their context, but they never get better at doing things, don't really understand feedback. An LLM given a task a thousand times will produce similar results a thousand times; it won't get better at it, or even quicker at it. And you can't ask them to explain their thinking. If they are thinking, and I agree they might, they don't have any aw…

> You can add stuff to their context, but they never get better at doing things, don't really understand feedback. I was using Claude Code today and it was absolutely capable of taking feedback to change behavior?

Within a session, yes, it will add each input to the context.

Start a new session with a blank context and it will not have learned anything.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#918
post #123

Personal take: LLMs are probably part of the answer (to AGI?) but are hugely handicapped by their current architecture: the only time that long-term memories are formed is during training, and everything after that (once they're being interacted with) sits only in their context window, which is the equivalent of fungible, fallible, lossy short-term memory. [0] I suspect that many things they currently struggle with c…

Five bucks says general intelligence is resource rational control over an interventional, compositional world model. Not raw pattern fitting. 3 graphs that share anchors:

Scene, concept, causal.

Graphs inherently support temporal edges and nodes, salience would emerge from the graph topology itself and cnsolidation would happen automatically through graph operations. In this one would presume episodic would become emergent.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#919

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of humans that will never "get" calculus, despite numerous attempts at the class and countless hours of 1:1 tutoring. Are those people not intelligent? Do they not think? We could say yes they aren't, but by the metric of making money, plenty of people are smart enough to be rich, while college math professors aren't. And while that's a facile way of measuring someone's worth or their contribution to…

I don't think it's actually true that someone with: 1. A desire to learn calculus 2. A good teacher 3. No mental impairments such as dementia or other major brain drainers could not learn calculus. Most people don't really care to try or don't get good resources. What you see as an intelligent mathematician is almost always someone born with better resources that was also encouraged to pursue math.

1 and 3 are loopholes large enough to drive a semi truck through. You could calculate how far the truck traveled if you have its acceleration with a double integral, however.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#920

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it has a practical, easy definition. Can you drop an AI into a terminal, give it the same resources as a human, and reliably get independent work product greater than that human would produce across a wide domain? If so, it's an AGI.

Doesn't sound like AGI without physical capabilities. It's not general if it's bound to digital work.

I think the intelligence is general if it can do any remote job that only requires digital IO.

It's general intelligence, not general humanity

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