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US Administration announces 34% tariffs on China, 20% on EU

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Re: US Administration announces 34% tariffs on China, 20% on EU

#911

Post by arandomusername »

myrmidon wrote: post #761
lumb63 wrote: post #625

Everyone is quick to deride this move as stupid. I don’t disagree that there are downsides to the approach, but there is a set of very real national problems that this might address. For instance, globalization and offshoring of production has made goods cheaper for consumers, but what about the former domestic producers who could not compete, and do not have the skills or capital to find a new job which pays as well…

Do you honestly believe that there are significant numbers of US citizens lining up to take up low-margin manufacturing work as is currently done in China or elsewhere? Chinese manufacturing workers live on a $25k/y income ($15k without adjusting for purchasing parity!). Do you beliefe that raising prices on goods by 30%ish is enough to make those jobs attractive to US citizens? What sectors would you suggest primari…

So you are okay with exploiting people for labour, often in inhumane conditions just so you can buy some unnecessary junk for cheaper?

> US economy right now is heavily biased towards providing services and high-tech goods because that is the most valuable use of its citizens according to market dynamics

So basically geared for upper class / banking industry? US has some of the highest wealth inequality of the developed world.

But by far the most important aspect is military. Manufacturing capability is extremely important for military. US may be the most advanced, but a $10m rocket will not beat 10,000 $1000 drones.

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/05/business/worldbusiness/05... https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-... https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-media-release/dhs-crac...

Re: US Administration announces 34% tariffs on China, 20% on EU

#912

Post by solatic »

svara wrote: post #750

It's true that free trade is hugely beneficial to the US economy as a whole, particularly with the USD being the reserve currency. The flow of goods is balanced by a flow of US dollars to other countries, which are ultimately cycled back into the US financial system - enabling budget deficits and an abundance of capital to invest in high growth industries. The flip side of this is that it also drives inequality - the…

> The obvious solution is... for the government to lower the cost of high-quality education

Not everyone is smart enough to land in the professional class. The US does its young population an enormous disservice by pushing low academic performers to go to college. There needs to be, somehow, a way for people to make a living with their hands, because for some people, that is genuinely all they are capable of.

> ... build out social systems...

The way you build out the social system is by enabling people in the working class to find genuine work that produces value, not some ditch-digging make-work government program. You don't take those jobs away by offshoring them.

I'm not saying I'm against offshoring in general or that I support Trump's tariffs - I don't. But it's not exactly controversial to point out that, since the end of the Cold War, the US prioritized the recommendations of economists over social cohesion and socially harmonious policy. A lot of people were thrown out of work and were left to fend for themselves. Many of them ended up as victims of the opioid epidemic. I'm not convinced that the prior system was completely peaches as cream.

Re: US Administration announces 34% tariffs on China, 20% on EU

#913

Post by HDThoreaun »

andreygrehov wrote: post #764
roxolotl wrote: post #479

Aside from everything else one thing what strikes me as particularly insane is how it’s not even defensible as a protective measure. My favorite everyday olive oil comes from Tunisia. They now have a 38% tariff on them. There are no out of work olive farmers in the US. The orange man wanted tariffs, the orange man is going to get tariffs. Now we have to hope the American people aren’t so dumb as to still be convinced…

US does produce olive oil, particularly in states like California, Arizona, Texas, Georgia, Florida, Oregon, and Hawaii. So you do have a few options: 1. Support local producers. There are high-quality olive oils made right here in the US that might surprise you. 2. Work with Tunisia manufacturers to move their production to the US 3. If you don't want to support local producers, pay extra and enjoy your Tunisia oliv…

US consumption of olive oil is more than 10x domestic production of olive oil. It is not possible to spin up olive orchards in even a medium timespan as the trees take many years to grow. It’s not about wanting to support domestic producers, it legitimately is not possible.

Re: US Administration announces 34% tariffs on China, 20% on EU

#914

Post by stefs »

vv_ wrote: post #274
iteratethis wrote: post #75

This won't bring home manufacturing but let's say that it will... The US doesn't have the people to do the actual manufacturing. I saw a video recently explaining how sectors like the military, construction and the automotive industry each have 100K+ positions that they are unable to fill. A return to manufacturing adds to that shortage. Apparently there's some 7 million young men of working age that are...missing in…

> The US doesn't have the people to do the actual manufacturing The core issue is that, historically, experienced workers have passed down their knowledge to new generations, ensuring a steady accumulation of expertise. However, when factories close and seasoned workers retire or move to other fields without training successors, a vast amount of valuable knowledge is lost. Rebuilding this expertise is both difficult…

> They’ll ship in parts, and final assembly will take place in the U.S.

i thought new the tariffs also applied to parts (with a few exceptions)?

Re: US Administration announces 34% tariffs on China, 20% on EU

#915

Post by egypturnash »

api wrote: post #846
svara wrote: post #750

It's true that free trade is hugely beneficial to the US economy as a whole, particularly with the USD being the reserve currency. The flow of goods is balanced by a flow of US dollars to other countries, which are ultimately cycled back into the US financial system - enabling budget deficits and an abundance of capital to invest in high growth industries. The flip side of this is that it also drives inequality - the…

> for the government to lower the cost of high-quality education Devils advocate point, and one nobody wants to talk about: what if everyone can't be a high-skill employee? Imagine if the highest earning jobs required immense physical endurance and strength. Nobody would argue that everyone can do that. It would be obvious that only a subset of people are capable of doing those jobs. For some reason, with intellectua…

> Imagine if the highest earning jobs required immense physical endurance and strength. Nobody would argue that everyone can do that. It would be obvious that only a subset of people are capable of doing those jobs.

"pfff it's easy-peasy, just go attend a (literal) bootcamp, you'll be fine, anyone can do it"

----

> Still it is obvious to me that the current system is not working for more than half of Americans. It's fantastic for the top ~20% or so and leaves everyone else behind.

god yes

The elephant in the room here: there is no money for anyone not in the top20%, it all goes into their pockets and they just sit on it, leaving only scraps for everyone else, tax the rich, anyone with more than x% of the median amount of wealth should have everything above that taken away and redistributed to everyone, possibly by means such as UBI/welfare/etc!

But we ain't gonna get any of that without revolution. And honestly it feels like Trump's getting us closer and closer to the brink of that.

Re: US Administration announces 34% tariffs on China, 20% on EU

#916

Post by rangestransform »

api wrote: post #846
svara wrote: post #750

It's true that free trade is hugely beneficial to the US economy as a whole, particularly with the USD being the reserve currency. The flow of goods is balanced by a flow of US dollars to other countries, which are ultimately cycled back into the US financial system - enabling budget deficits and an abundance of capital to invest in high growth industries. The flip side of this is that it also drives inequality - the…

> for the government to lower the cost of high-quality education Devils advocate point, and one nobody wants to talk about: what if everyone can't be a high-skill employee? Imagine if the highest earning jobs required immense physical endurance and strength. Nobody would argue that everyone can do that. It would be obvious that only a subset of people are capable of doing those jobs. For some reason, with intellectua…

Will the US be able to survive as a superpower while severely cutting down the top 20%'s standard of living? They could simply defect somewhere that offers them a similar position in society as the US, similar to what the US has done to the rest of the world.

Re: US Administration announces 34% tariffs on China, 20% on EU

#917

Post by ckemere »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #891
svara wrote: post #750

It's true that free trade is hugely beneficial to the US economy as a whole, particularly with the USD being the reserve currency. The flow of goods is balanced by a flow of US dollars to other countries, which are ultimately cycled back into the US financial system - enabling budget deficits and an abundance of capital to invest in high growth industries. The flip side of this is that it also drives inequality - the…

> The obvious solution is not to hurt the economy as a whole, but rather for the government to lower the cost of high-quality education, build out social systems, and invest into onshoring select strategic industries by raising taxes at the high end. You're proposing to tax an international supply chain. To tax something it has to be in your jurisdiction to begin with, and then you have several problems. The most obv…

OR use borrowing (e.g. current account deficit). If government spending drives productivity growth then it’s a net positive?

OR tax wealth. If most return on international capital investment is being stored in the US, taxing this effectively taxes profits on international sales???

Re: US Administration announces 34% tariffs on China, 20% on EU

#918

Post by LadyCailin »

gizzlon wrote: post #905
TrackerFF wrote: post #62

From what I understand, de minimis exemption has also been removed. That is a huge, huge deal. It effectively means that all goods imported from China will be slapped with a 30% import tax, as soon as said goods arrive the US border / customs. Usually what happens then, is that the courier will pay that tax, and then bill the recipient later on - as well as charge some fee/fees for the work done. This is why in some…

Sounds like a good idea, but how are they actually going to implement and enforce that? Do they open every package? What stops Temu or whatever from just keep sending them? I mean drugs get through so ..

Yeah, the stopping drugs thing is just performative propaganda. It’s really about the money, and the attempt to punish China (which will in fact mostly hurt Americans as much or more, anyways). If it were about the drugs only, there wouldn’t be such punitive measures, and the press release wouldn’t mention the fact that China doesn’t have a de minimus exception.

Re: US Administration announces 34% tariffs on China, 20% on EU

#919

Post by mrguyorama »

cs702 wrote: post #592

Three things: 1. On the face of it, this looks horrible. I won't rehash the many arguments against it here, though. This page is already chock-full of those arguments. 2. Robot labor could make ultra-low-cost manufacturing possible in the US, to the point that many things become cheaper to make locally than to ship from abroad, tariffs or or no tariffs. 3. If any major country/region negotiates lower tariffs by fully…

>Robot labor could make ultra-low-cost manufacturing possible in the US, to the point that many things become cheaper to make locally than to ship from abroad, tariffs or or no tariffs.

That's not a solution to anything though. All it does is ensure your money goes to Mr. I-own-the-robots instead of to Foxcon's Mr I-own-the-people

That doesn't bring back any jobs

Re: US Administration announces 34% tariffs on China, 20% on EU

#920

Post by AnthonyMouse »

api wrote: post #846
svara wrote: post #750

It's true that free trade is hugely beneficial to the US economy as a whole, particularly with the USD being the reserve currency. The flow of goods is balanced by a flow of US dollars to other countries, which are ultimately cycled back into the US financial system - enabling budget deficits and an abundance of capital to invest in high growth industries. The flip side of this is that it also drives inequality - the…

> for the government to lower the cost of high-quality education Devils advocate point, and one nobody wants to talk about: what if everyone can't be a high-skill employee? Imagine if the highest earning jobs required immense physical endurance and strength. Nobody would argue that everyone can do that. It would be obvious that only a subset of people are capable of doing those jobs. For some reason, with intellectua…

> If we're creating an economy where decent jobs only exist for people in the top ~20% of the ability curve, how do we handle that?

The most important thing here is to do something about the cost of living, i.e. the price of necessities.

Housing isn't inherently as expensive as it is in the US, it's made that way on purpose. Healthcare likewise. If you only make $25,000/year and housing is $20,000/year and healthcare is $12,500/year, you're screwed. If you only make $25,000/year and housing is $10,000/year and healthcare is $5000/year, you're not.

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