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Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

bbc.com

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Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#911

Post by jeswin »

jmward01 wrote: post #506

US policy is now one of forcing the world into a zero sum game and it is a shame because the world isn't zero sum. This means the world will loose the gains from friendship and cooperation that increase the overall outcome for everyone. It is like living in a city where crime is expected so everyone puts up iron bars on their windows and the parks are all locked-down nightmares. When there is trust and cooperation yo…

> I am ashamed of the US.

Don't be. I'm neither American nor European, and from my vantage point this is far less America's (US) fault than it is Western Europe's. US has been asking Europe to increase defense spending for years now, and at the beginning of the war it was below 2% (Germany was spending 1.25% in 2018). Trump said this very publicly in during his first term, and he was ignored and mostly ridiculed. Same thing with the Gazprom deal.

Europe's defence should not be entirely on the American tax payer.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#912

Post by unraveller »

walterbell wrote: post #781

Full video (49:22), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajxSWocbye8

Unfortunately both WSJ and The Hill call their ~10 minute argument edit the "full video" on YT and most people won't see the full exchange.

The first thing Trump says in the official stream is that they've had their negotiation spats before and are stronger for it.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#913

Post by tim333 »

mempko wrote: post #193

This is what a falling empire looks like. America First is a project to dismantle the U.S. empire and reduce it to just another country.

It looks to me more like a start or an empire. The US has never been imperial but maybe it can get together with Russia and make a start with American West Ukraine, followed by Greenland and Canada?

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#914

Post by dade_ »

Horrific diplomacy failure. These are usually pleasant photo ops because the work was already done behind the scenes. Incompetence is on full display. Story I understand is the Rubio thought he had a deal, but clearly didn't. JD Vance should be kept out of the room, he is out of his depth and his behaviour abhorrent. And Trump's kiss the ring makes me sick to stomach. Why America wants a King after a bloody revolution to get rid of the last one is puzzling to say the least.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#915

Post by tim333 »

picafrost wrote: post #148

I find it utterly bizarre that some Americans seem to be under the delusion that the US ceasing its military support for Ukraine will somehow save lives. It is the same kind of delusion that causes President Trump to list off the US presidents under which Putin has disregarded its negotiated deals with, but obviously that would never happen under his watch. I suspect that this exchange will become an infamous moment…

I mean a deal where the fighting stops could save lives.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#916

Post by tim333 »

gambiting wrote: post #265

Zelenskyy is an absolute hero. I couldn't be prouder of him in this very moment, to actually speak his mind and demand that the man who claims to be the leader of the free world admits one simple thing - that Putin is a killer. If he can't even do that then it's clear no productive discussion can take place.

I think he did a good job of calmly making his case in the face of Trump/Vances bad behaviour.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#917

Post by lawn »

louthy wrote: post #457

The whole notion of Pax Americana, just like Pax Britannica before, all the way back to Pax Romana, is that peace (Pax) is in the interest of the dominant empire that enforces it. Why? Because the dominant empire that enforces it gets the most spoils from that peace. It is why Britain had the biggest empire ever and it's why the US is the richest nation on earth today. This point seems to be completely missed by Trum…

Bravo.

Another historical point of interest is how China, the "center of the world", isolated themselves from the rest of the world and how that played out.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#918

Post by herghost »

Nition wrote: post #261

I normally avoid commenting on politics entirely but I feel compelled to comment here. I'm sure anyone who's ever been bullied in their life will feel exactly what's happening in that video clip. Two big kids, confident in their position and backing each other up, gang up on the outsider. Did they ever really want to make a deal at all? Absolutely infuriating and saddening to watch.

100% bullying.

Something that isn't seemingly being commented widely on either is that Vance started hitting Zelenskyy with bursts of multiple questions and as soon as he started answering the first there were immediate challenges and redirections.

English isn't Zelenskyy's first language. Imagine how tough this must have been.

At that point the questions weren't questions anymore - they were statements that were left unchallenged.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#919

Post by lawn »

whatshisface wrote: post #845

I don't think anyone has made the simplest observation, which is that Zelenskyy is not groveling because the survival of his country now depends on his credibility with other allies. Seriously - why would he want to send submissive signals?

Especially important as Ukraine (unfortunately) only received help because they managed to defend themselves.

If they had rolled over for the Russians, like Trump wanted Zelensky to do, they wouldn't had received the support they have.

No, the reality is that to receive help you need to be strong yourself.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#920

Post by lawn »

snickerbockers wrote: post #790

What is actually the projected end-game of people who support this war? It's been three years and ukraine has struggled to make any significant progress at retaking its territory. It should be clear by now that they can't return to their 2014 or even 2022 borders unless the countries backing them become directly involved in a potentially apocalyptic war against Russia, and I haven't seen anybody who wants that, not e…

No, Russia's economy is hurting bad and it's entirely reasonable to say that a fourth option is the collapse of the Russian economy and military.
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