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El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

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911–920 of 930 posts

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#911

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good point and I do agree in principle. But there still needs to be some mechanism to limit wealth inequality or we still get the inevitable conclusion. The US minimum wage hasn't changed in 16 years! Which means many of these peak performers are built on the back of poverty, people who don't have the luxury of "freely agreeing" to take their labor elsewhere. It's just not fair at all. Governments are funnel…

> The US minimum wage hasn't changed in 16 years! I don't mind this, because minimum wage is a national minimum. States (and even more fine-grained than that) need to have contextualised minimum wage, or it's just silly. That's why it hasn't changed. Minimum wage increases wages at the expense of reducing employment, for any job that isn't worth that wage. You can't increase the national US minimum wage to what would…

re: the minimum wage. I'm in Australia, not the US, but is there any place in the US where a fulltime worker on minimum wage is paid enough to have a reasonable life, let's say a 2 bedroom home with two children, without struggling?

I was not implying that "you're either a wealthy business owner or you're on national minimum wage". You can safely substitute a "middle class" person, or even a "rich, but not super-rich" person, for "on national minimum wage", because in a few years I believe the middle class will completely cease to exist.

This is already happening and is actually the inevitable conclusion of all the funneling of money towards the super-rich and the subsequent increase in wealth inequality.

I wasn't even actually talking about business owners, but the super-rich that those business owners borrow money and pay interest to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics

That's the trickling down I'm talking about, which you didn't mention because it appears you don't think that som trickling down is even necessary.

Some trickle down or other mechanism to limit the rich from owning everything is necessary if that inevitable outcome of a tiny group of people owning absolutely everything is to be avoided.

Do you disagree with that?

I believe you're alluding to some kind of nearly perfect system where large businesses have not created artificial regulatory and other moats to protect their business and hamstring competitors.

eg, imagine a large factory that employs most of the people in an area. Potential workers for that factory do not have the ability to negotiate a fair wage, and also don't have the mobility to uproot their entire life to move somewhere else. Also another company cannot reasonably expect to move in and out-compete for the workers in that area. Thus the fictional factory is in a massively favorable position to "negotiate" wages for its workers.

I think we have largely differing views on the fundamental fairness of a system where low-paid workers are expected to negotiate with multinational corporations that already have all the advantages in any negotiation.

Those corporations are also able to monetize the profits from those workers productivity to actively lobby governments for even more favorable conditions in those "negotiations".

I believe it is a very unfair system.

I doubt we will end up finding a middle ground here if you do not think a system where the super-rich are not limited in some way from accumulating wealth is unfair.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#912
post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen the economy lately?

And how would Bitcoin make the economy better?

The government couldn't constantly print more to hand to their mates, thus diluting the value of held dollars.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#913
post #904

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's of course not that bankers put this spin on it to give them an excuse to continuously print money (all the money in fact) out of thin air and charge interest on it. Remind me, why is the target inflation rate 2-3% again? It couldn't be that it's the amount of money creation they can get away with without devaluing the currency so much that it destabilises into hyperinflation could it? I'm just having fun - I'm s…

> Remind me, why is the target inflation rate 2-3% again? Because empirically it seems to yield a pretty sustainable mixture of consumption, investment, and savings, while also not risking a wage-price spiral. You tell me what the target inflation rate should be and point to some moments in history informing that target so I can go read about them.

It should be a negative, just as the value of consumables are over time. But that's not possible in a system heavily indebted and addicted to interest rates under the free market rate (only possible because banks create money effortlessly and hold it artificially low to enable a monopoly on "debt"). Such a policy would quickly collapse the current system as the value of the debt would increase over time instead of decrease, and so instead the banks inflate the value of the currency down to 0 which takes more time for the system to collapse (which fiat currencies always do and always will).

Starting again with a hard money, we would thrive, instead of being enslaved by a system that continuously stealthily, steals the value out of the fruits of our labour (at a rate of ~7% year) and gives it to the bankers and those closest to them.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#914
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around the time of SegWit, the “digital gold” camp won over the “digital money” camp — who moved on to ETH, SOL, etc.

Many of us in the BC is digital money camp argued the case that more transactions and a lower transaction fee could be most easily implemented, within the spirit of the founders intent, if we simply increased the size of the transaction buffer, mitigating an obvious bottleneck. We argued against the complexity of SegWit and Lightning Network. I think greed and politics won rather than engineering or economics good se…

I did lookup the BTC transaction fee, but it looks like 15 USD was completely wrong .. my bad.

Checking now :

https://ycharts.com/indicators/bitcoin_average_transaction_f...

This says, afaict, the average BTC transaction cost today is $1:40 USD

The 5yr chart shows it spiking at $128 in April 2024.

If BTC transactions reliably cost 15c per transaction, it might make for a viable electronic money... but that is clearly not the case, so I think my point stands.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#915
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

8% is quite a lot though.

This "everything's going great as long as you squint hard enough" stuff is why people don't give cryptocurrency proponents the time of day. At some point admitting you've lost actually better preserves your ability to be heard at the next debate.

When I consider 8% to be high and you don't, that makes me more skeptical of mainstream adoption as a currency than you are.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#916

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just a private key. You don't "connect" private keys to the Internet. You just have poor processes keeping it hidden while not losing it. I'm surprised you think El Salvador can do that.

In order for transactions to be signed with the private key, the device holding them has to be connected to the internet, or at least be able to interface with another device that is. It is highly likely that anything involving their BTC reserves requires someone to be physically present at some sort of facility and it is 100% not available for hackers to just siphon whenever they wish with a virus. If possible, it w…

That's what cold storage is. And more than likely cold storage they requires multiple signatures, to prevent any single entity from being compromised.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#917

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is almost trivial for a 3-letter agency to track bitcoin flow. Every transaction is entirely public with only pseudonyms to obfuscate identity, and with the current KYC laws good luck not getting doxxed while buying BTC. We need to move this discourse away from "crypto" and towards Monero specifically if we want any progress on adoption

Isn't a wallet just a private-public key pair? One could easily generate those on a whim and start transacting using them. I assume the KYC laws apply to exchanges but what about individuals with bitcoin directly trading with each other? No way to track that

Yes - I buy my bitcoin using a decentralised exchange over Tor. All the authorities can see is that I send a random person some money to their bank account. They have no idea what it's for, and would have to individually track down and successfully interrogate each different person I send money to, to discover how much bitcoin I had bought and even then they can't prove I own it.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#918
post #906
post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and England was at that time and for almost another century causing famines in its colonies abroad by preventing them from becoming either capitalist or liberal. Ireland didn't even get the worst of it; India suffered much worse under the English yoke.

Agreed. So it sounds like capitalistic economies can cause famines?

Certainly, if we're talking about their effects on people who aren't privileged to participate in the capitalist economy itself. Being colonized is much the same experience regardless of what economic system your colonists' families live under overseas. And I'd expect illiberal capitalist economies to cause famines, too; liberalism is more important than capitalism for preventing famines.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#919
post #815
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and yes, which is one reason that, as it turns out, neither the US in the 01920s nor England in the 01860s experienced the famines that affected some other parts of the world at the same time. (In the 01920s Russia was experiencing its first famine that could reasonably be attributed to communism, and in the 01860s Sweden and Finland were experiencing their last famines before their transitions to capitalism.) B…

> In the 1920s Russia was experiencing its first famine that could reasonably be attributed to communism There were no famines in the USSR from 1947–1991, but there was a variety of considerations such as monarchy, civil war, 2 world wars, and anti-communist sanctions from the 1890-1947 period, so if anything, it appears that the evidence would imply communism ended the famines, not caused them.

Certainly communism did eventually stop causing famines in the Soviet Union, but the Holodomor personally overseen by Stalin was worse than any Tsarist famine. And we have many other examples of communism causing famine: Mao's Great Leap Forward caused history's worst famine, for example (history's only famine worse than Stalin's Holodomor), but also, for example, the Ethiopian famine many of us remember from the 80s was caused by the Derg (who were technically socialist rather than communist), and one aspect of Pol Pot's democide in Cambodia was a famine, as well.

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM has more details, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:20th-century_famines lists some other examples, along with the odd non-communist famine. But none in liberal capitalist economies.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#920
post #807

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A house in 5-10 years is nice, but it doesn't stop me from starving to death today.

That's exactly the problem: People will (rationally!) limit their spending to bare necessities if they expect the currency they have on hand to strongly appreciate over time.

That implies that 1. it is a problem and 2. that people are rational. The latter is definitely not true, and the former is definitely arguable.
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