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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#911

Post by cultofmetatron »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #710
Aeolun wrote: post #684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All correct and yet, what should happen? Happy, fed, employed people do not become terrorists. They have too much to lose.

Too bad gaza has no land or economy to feed and employ themselves.

they've tried. I saw this youtube video awhile back about a man from gaza who built an inland fish farm to raise food to feed people because the fishermen were forbidden by isreal fro boing to the areas where the fish were.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxEqXkdJUWY&ab_channel=Insid...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#912

Post by Thedarkb »

irishloop wrote: post #849
peterashford wrote: post #829

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People said Apartheid South Africa couldn't end without a bloodbath. People said peace in Northern Ireland was impossible. People thought the Cold War would never end. Impossible things are impossible until they aren't. I'm not saying that any of these things are easy - they clearly are not. But history shows us again and again that change is possible when people work towards it in good faith. From a practical point…

The Palestine/Israel conflict is significantly longer than any of the examples you gave. Which is not to say that its impossible. But the older I get, the less hope I have.

The ethno-religious conflict in Northern Ireland dates back to the seventeenth century and the question of Irish sovereignty dates all the way back to the twelfth century!

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#913

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

jnsaff2 wrote: post #907
tim333 wrote: post #906

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Polite factual refutation probably works.

I wish this was true. It usually leads to those super long reply-battles dang was referring to.

It doesn't have to. One comment refuting a contention with clear references to support the refutation is enough to make one's point. There is no stronger position than the truth, as one understands it. And if one is wrong after all, because they misunderstand the facts or they are missing some facts, it's not a loss, but a win, to find out through a, ahem, Frank Exchange of Views.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#914

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

cultofmetatron wrote: post #909
tim333 wrote: post #906

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Polite factual refutation probably works.

yea I tried that. I posted links to all my sources as well as opinions from credible human rights organizations. they just play the game of being obtuse to the very end and then gaslight you about needing to backup my opinions as if there weren't at least 2-3 inks for every assertion I make. one side of this debate is very much NOT acting in good faith because they rely on the status quo being maintained to continue…

So what? People will see your sources and see what the other person writes and they can make up their own minds.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#915

Post by tim333 »

peterashford wrote: post #829
pgeorgi wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

People said Apartheid South Africa couldn't end without a bloodbath. People said peace in Northern Ireland was impossible. People thought the Cold War would never end. Impossible things are impossible until they aren't. I'm not saying that any of these things are easy - they clearly are not. But history shows us again and again that change is possible when people work towards it in good faith. From a practical point…

Peace could be achieved fairly easily if both sides said they want to live in peace. However only one does. I think that will change eventually.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#916

Post by rayiner »

anon84873628 wrote: post #585
pgeorgi wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

>All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a long time to build a modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society, despite whatever setbacks, attacks, and sabotage occur from within and without. The only way to have peace is to give people a better option than becoming terrorists.

> And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a long time to build a modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society

What makes you think that’s even possible? Name any other Arab country you could plunk down next to Israel that wouldn’t constantly be trying to destroy Israel?

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#917

Post by Qem »

sebzim4500 wrote: post #350
Sporktacular wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe 695 Israeli civilians, 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139? They're all numbers from the Israeli government. Weird how only disputing the Hamas numbers as biased is a talking point.

It is way easier to verify those numbers though, there is an actual list of names and journalists can (and have) talk to the families etc.

Lists of names for Palestinian victims are published as well: https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2024/israel-war-on-gaz...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#918

Post by rayiner »

amluto wrote: post #762
reissbaker wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the approach the West took with ISIS, which involved similarly one-sided fights against terrorist forces [1], nor do I think it's an approach that would have worked. When "everyone who wants peace" doesn't include the people in control of the guns and rockets, who instead want to kill their enemies by any means necessary (and themselves do not respect international law), you can't simply dialogue your way…

A major problem is that the Gazan people have very legitimate problems with Israel, and this leads to a situation in which enough of them become militant to cause serious problems. Solving that seems like it needs a more wholistic approach than simply trying to get rid of the militants at the cost of causing everyone else to have an even bigger beef with Israel.

Their legitimate problems with Israel stem from their illegitimate problem with Israel: that Arabs rejected a two-state solution at inception and repeatedly tried to wipe Israel off the map. More fundamentally, the whole problem stems from Arabs refusing to want to give up any of the territory they acquired during their wars of conquest in the 700s. Palestine is always going to be a proxy for that. (Which is why Qatar is hosting Hamas leadership.)

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#919

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

dang wrote: post #692
theultdev wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a reason why Oct 7th (the massacre that started this escalation) was not discussed? https://hn.algolia.com/?dateEnd=1696896000&dateRange=custom&...

I haven't gone back to check this, but I assume users flagged the posts and moderators didn't turn off the flags. We only turn off flags when it seems like there's some basis and at least some chance for a reflective, substantive discussion. That isn't possible in the immediate aftermath of a shocking event like the atrocities of Oct 7—the reactions are necessarily going to be reflexive rather than reflective; comple…

>> We only turn off flags when it seems like there's some basis and at least some chance for a reflective, substantive discussion.

Mokay, but then can I grumble? I've posted several articles on the subject of the alleged genocide of the Palestinians by Israel's IDF, here on HN I mean, and they all got flagged and not unflagged. I took care to post opinions on both sides of the subject, e.g. this public statement by "over 800 scholars and practitioners of international law, conflict studies and genocide studies" warning of potential genocide [1], and this NYT article by historian of genocide Omer Bartov, saying that genocide is not in evidence ("yet") [2].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38036236

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38228704

Those are articles by scholars who discuss the subject in the most dispassionate manner imaginable (Bartov is particularly a pleasure to read for his level-headed and erudite analysis, although it's obvious he'll find it very hard to admit genocide by his country which he clearly loves) and I'm pretty sure that means they satisfy the "curious conversation" goal you, dang, hold sacred (and it's good that you do).

So what's up? I've been posting this stuff for months and now the subject has exploded in mainstream discourse with the ICJ case, which makes it even more emotionally charged than before. Wouldn't it have been better to get a chance to discuss this before it got to this point?

And while I appreciate there's not one side that HN favours, the ability to flag anything anyone dislikes shapes the discourse in the way vocal minorities prefer.

Sorry for grumbling. I hope you know I respect and admire the work you've done to keep HN on the straight and narrow.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#920

Post by jnsaff2 »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #914
cultofmetatron wrote: post #909

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yea I tried that. I posted links to all my sources as well as opinions from credible human rights organizations. they just play the game of being obtuse to the very end and then gaslight you about needing to backup my opinions as if there weren't at least 2-3 inks for every assertion I make. one side of this debate is very much NOT acting in good faith because they rely on the status quo being maintained to continue…

So what? People will see your sources and see what the other person writes and they can make up their own minds.

What I have observed is that you refute that actual bullshit with facts and then they come back with some other "whatabout" and new bullshit.
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