Nobody wants to teach anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#911

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 6:10 AM UTC

horsawlarway wrote: post #873

lotsofpulp wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Our daycare gets more expensive as the child ages - not less. I have shopped around daycares on east and west coast, and I have never encountered this type of pricing. Infants have always been more expensive than toddlers and pre K in at least 10 to 15 daycares I have priced. I also do not see the purpose of comparing prices for different prices of labor for justifying the prices. Physics teachers may very well need…

> I also do not see the purpose of comparing prices for different prices of labor for justifying the prices. Then you're unable to see that market forces are making it incredibly unattractive to be a teacher. The comparison is to point out the following: Why bother to take loans for college, then complete the additional certifications required for teaching, only to spend more effort at a career that will pay you cons…

[deleted]

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#912

Post by acjohnson55 » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 6:17 AM UTC

archduck wrote: post #836

acjohnson55 wrote: post #797

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally don't think ridicule is ever necessary or appropriate. Even if it results in compliance or submission in the moment, it's very likely to produce resentment. In an organization, it produces a culture of fear, rather than curiosity and initiative.

Ridicule can absolutely produce resentment, no doubt about it. It can cause workplaces to become toxic, cause people to shut down (or worse: cause people to _learn_ to shut down), cause people to cope in unhealthy ways like projection, bullying, etc. However, consider that _satire_ is, fundamentally, ridicule. And it's very public (or at least intended to be). Often satire is one of the only ways that unaccountable p…

I love comedy and satire for my personal enjoyment, but I'm not at all convinced they've been at all effective at stopping some of the most harmful ideas of our time.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#913

Post by bmitc » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 6:23 AM UTC

Wistar wrote: post #696

gorgoiler wrote: post #645

I tried teaching high school CS for the best part of two years in a private school. Everything to do with the pupils was amazing and I loved every moment. I am a natural with behaviour management and although it was stressful, every time the bad kids acted up it presented a teachable moment. You could really feel the impact on their lives and behaviour, well behind the Python and the TCP/IP and while loops. But every…

My wife is a primary public school teacher in the U.S. I read to her your comment, and she said to me, "We have 21 teachers at our school, and only one of them resembles what that comment describes."

As an anecdote, I was a math major. I took an elective course on the history of mathematics, which must have been a requirement for math education majors, who were under a separate department and even college (i.e., not the math department or college of the arts and sciences). I was the only math major, and I'm pretty sure the only male in a class of about 20 or so. The professor was one of the easiest and most straightforward professors, basically giving out a study guide of homework problems that directly reflected what was to be on the exams. I am fairly certain I got 100% on all exams.

I have never witnessed more complaining and moaning from students than I did in that class. The education majors (i.e., everyone else) complained about absolutely everything, from the book to the professor to the material itself to "difficulty" of the course. It was unbelievable that these people were supposedly wanting to be math teachers but were complaining endlessly about a history of mathematics course. I experienced basically the same from the education majors in the introduction to proofs class.

My mom was a teacher, but those experiences forever tainted the picture of a modern day teacher. In fact, one of the primary reasons my mom retired early was due to her fellow teachers and requirements from the school. She was mandated to use PowerPoint and share lesson plans. But the lesson plans received from the younger teachers weren't up to her standards, so my mom usually had to redo the others' lesson plans, on top of her assigned lesson plan material. Additionally, the kids with the lowest test scores and behavioral problems were usually transferred to my mom's homeroom class for her to help turnaround, which she usually did. What an absolute nightmare.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#914

Post by waste_monk » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 6:33 AM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #824

auslegung wrote: post #813

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like a lot of what you say, but > Reduce school hours that are very often lengthened for babysitting reasons. This babysitting is vital for many families, most of whom are low income and can’t afford alternatives. If we reduce class hours we should provide something to keep children positively occupied.

I agree, we should, but we don't necessarily need teachers to do that. At my school we had an after hours service where the monitors would have kids play outside, play/learn boardgames, watch educationalish movies, learn to cook, etc.., for an extra 3-5$ a day for up to 4 hours. The class sizes were much larger of course and there is no correction or study plan involved. I think that's a good and economical solution…

We had this as well... OSHC (Out of School Hours Care). It was mostly staffed by volunteer parents with one or two school employees (since it was on school grounds and presumably needed trusted persons to lock up / have a first aid and/or fire warden available / etc.

That said, I'm curious as to what age this care would be required? Back In My Day ™ I was entrusted with a house key at a relatively young age (10? 11? it was a while ago...) and would walk myself home / prepare food / generally take care of myself until an adult came home. But these days you hear about police being called for kids playing without an adult present in a fenced-in front yard (and the fact that as I understand the USA is far less walkable than where I live) which makes me wonder what age is considered suitable over there?

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#915

Post by nathanasmith » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 6:42 AM UTC

tinsmith wrote: post #43

uniqueuid wrote: post #2

As a European, it has always been perplexing to me how little the US invests in teachers and schools, given that we know how huge the benefits are down the road (educational attainment, income, pro-social behavior, life satisfaction). Watching how large parts of the political spectrum embrace hardship as a societal teaching tool, I begin to understand that the expectation may always have been that kids ought to figur…

When you're actually from the US as a Millennial or Gen Z'er, it's not hard to see what happened. The previous two generations taught us nothing, but expected us to know everything they did, as though by virtue of being a living human this knowledge is just granted. Our parents never had the time to show us how to budget, care for a home, etc, so we had to learn from the Internet. But why? I posit that Boomers and Ge…

> When you're actually from the US as a Millennial or Gen Z'er, it's not hard to see what happened. The previous two generations taught us nothing

> Gen X had such an easy go of it

I was still in college when the dot com bust happened, followed a few years later by the Great Recession. Please tell me more how Gen X had it so much easier than Millenials. Also in a previous comment you claim to be 44. Since I turned 45 this year we’re basically the same age. We both, by most definitions, are Gen X. That being the case maybe you’re making a subtle point that your life was really easy as a result of that fact (not that the generation this and that crap means much anyway though you seem to put some stock in it hence my comment).

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#916

Post by kamaal » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 6:52 AM UTC

gorgoiler wrote: post #645

I tried teaching high school CS for the best part of two years in a private school. Everything to do with the pupils was amazing and I loved every moment. I am a natural with behaviour management and although it was stressful, every time the bad kids acted up it presented a teachable moment. You could really feel the impact on their lives and behaviour, well behind the Python and the TCP/IP and while loops. But every…

>>Imagine the worst, most power hungry, little-napoleon office manager you’ve ever had and then imagine one in three of the staff have that mindset.

This correlates with whatever I've seen over the years with various teachers, and then experiences with teachers outside my own case(teachers of nieces, nephews and other younger cousins). The most theme is Never outshine the master problems, the teacher's seem to be pissed that their students might win above them in life and went to actively hurt the students with whatever power they have.

Most successful teachers I've seen were also the opposite, finding their success by helping students win.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#917

Post by milkoolong » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 6:56 AM UTC

I'm not fond of public schools in my district which is rural and poorer. I wrote a response in which I believe teachers don't deserve its students as opposed to the article's "America doesn't deserve its teachers": https://abovenorm.co/a-personal-anecdote-on-public-school-te...

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#918

Post by gorgoiler » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 7:38 AM UTC

travisgriggs wrote: post #882

gorgoiler wrote: post #645

I tried teaching high school CS for the best part of two years in a private school. Everything to do with the pupils was amazing and I loved every moment. I am a natural with behaviour management and although it was stressful, every time the bad kids acted up it presented a teachable moment. You could really feel the impact on their lives and behaviour, well behind the Python and the TCP/IP and while loops. But every…

So which point are you making? Are you claiming - “I’ve been there on the front lines for a whole long two years, and I’ve seen what the article is talking about! It’s even worse than you realize! If you treat these teachers like we have for a sustained period over this many years, the constant negative shit turns a sizeable amount of the teachers themselves to be crappy?” Or is it - “I don’t buy it. I did a stint fo…

I don’t know how the negative feedback cycle started but it definitely exists — teachers are treated with contempt by both management and parents which creates a selection pressure that either favors or develops a certain kind of negative character trait in the job.

My school was very poorly funded. The shiny new facilities that everyone associated with the private sector were only ever provided as vanity projects by wealthy parents. The day to day funding for repairs, painting, food, resources, staff etc was rock bottom. Another reason to see how a bitter sentiment can accumulate over time.

So I guess the first of your two options? There is a constant influx of people who want to be good teachers. We squander it but passively knocking them down and it is very sad.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#919

Post by donw » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 7:45 AM UTC

donw wrote: post #817

Wistar wrote: post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife is a primary public school teacher in the U.S. I read to her your comment, and she said to me, "We have 21 teachers at our school, and only one of them resembles what that comment describes."

My parents were both teachers. A significant trunk of my classmates went into teaching after college. We keep in touch. The above comment is accurate.

Clarifying my ambiguous response: "Above comment" refers to "most teachers are jobsworths that don't care about their students".

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#920

Post by gorgoiler » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 7:49 AM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #771

gorgoiler wrote: post #645

I tried teaching high school CS for the best part of two years in a private school. Everything to do with the pupils was amazing and I loved every moment. I am a natural with behaviour management and although it was stressful, every time the bad kids acted up it presented a teachable moment. You could really feel the impact on their lives and behaviour, well behind the Python and the TCP/IP and while loops. But every…

I deeply resent the fact that your comment is the top comment as of this writing. Nowhere in it have you acknowledged that the reason one third of teaching staff you interacted with were bitter political players was actually the entire topic of the article: the system has made them that way.

I’m sorry I didn’t make it clearer that I couldn’t agree with you more.

No one goes into teaching to be a bad teacher. Some can deal with the negativity, some can’t. I couldn’t and while I would never have let it affect my work with the children, I could see myself becoming a shitty colleague. It was good that I got out when I did but I miss the children so much.