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“It’s time for Apple to fix texting”

android.com

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Re: “It’s time for Apple to fix texting”

#911

Post by smoldesu »

nucleardog wrote: post #910
int_19h wrote: post #762

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big difference between a toaster and your phone is that the phone gets updates. Which, aside from fixing things, also do stuff like change UI. On Android, when Google comes up with some new inane idea for the launcher, I can at least install a different one. On iOS, when Apple does the same, I don't really have a choice other than to go along with it.

> On iOS, when Apple does the same, I don't really have a choice other than to go along with it. Part of my original comment: > I don't have to think about how I want the phone to work because it just works the Apple way and if I don't like it I can just get a different phone. That's a feature to me. I don't spend any brainspace when I'm using my phone on thinking about things that annoy me or things that could be be…

You're perfectly welcome to have good defaults, but how do those conflict with allowing people to use third-party messaging apps and letting people customize their phone? Your comment isn't a refutation of the argument you're replying to.

Re: “It’s time for Apple to fix texting”

#912

Post by smoldesu »

musicale wrote: post #676
smoldesu wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple also collects timestamps for app usage (iOS and MacOS), tracks Spotlight usage and tracks your iPhone with Find My by default. This insidious behavior is widespread, and saying it's only Google's issue is comically hypocritical. Malware is a rampant issue on both operating systems, both iOS 16 and Android 12 have zero-click exploits that allow completely rooted control of the device. I'd argue Google competes j…

> Apple also collects timestamps for app usage (iOS and MacOS), tracks Spotlight usage and tracks your iPhone with Find My by default Hmm, as I understand it: "Timestamps for app usage": notarization checks happen the first time you start a new app, basically like OCSP to enable certificate revocation: https://support.apple.com/guide/security/gatekeeper-and-runt... I dislike online validation and would prefer a revoc…

> What I'd like to know is: Is there any evidence that Apple is retaining this information and using it for other purposes

Sure; all sorts of data leaves your iPhone in the form of encrypted channels to Apple servers, whether you have telemetry/analytics enabled or not. When you fully power-down your iPhone with Find My disabled, your Baseband modem is still sending and receiving information from nearby cell towers. Apple has created conduits specifically for harvesting and retaining this data, they wouldn't collect it all if this wasn't the case.

Oh, and if you still don't believe me, you should look into some of the more recent PRISM revelations (eg. how iMessage and Find My can be used by law enforcement), or the ways that the CCP uses the data Apple collects for them. There is nothing besides marketing that suggests Apple has a commitment to privacy or security.

Re: “It’s time for Apple to fix texting”

#913

Post by smoldesu »

sbuk wrote: post #732
username190 wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Apple were censoring messaging apps I would agree with your seemingly negative sentiment, however, as someone who has pushed out apps to the Apple and Mac app stores, I can say they absolutely do not do that. Perhaps not in your country, but they've certainly done it before - censoring Telegram in both Russia[0] and Iran[1], for example. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/31/technology/telegram-apple... [1] htt…

What’s to stop governments banning RCS?

The fact that more secure alternatives are freely available, and by sabotaging SMS/iMessage they would be losing their wiretap on the nation's text messages?

Re: “It’s time for Apple to fix texting”

#914

Post by JimDabell »

paganel wrote: post #796
eek2121 wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say this like it is a bad thing. I used Signal, which is an open-source messaging app. If Apple were censoring messaging apps I would agree with your seemingly negative sentiment, however, as someone who has pushed out apps to the Apple and Mac app stores, I can say they absolutely do not do that. There are many reasons many IT folks actually prefer an iPhone over Android. The two biggest ones are privacy and sec…

> You say this like it is a bad thing. It has been a bad thing for me because iOS decided to get me off Whtasapp and forced me using the much worse Apple message system without me having any say in it. I have a SE and a relatively older iOS version on it, can't remember exactly which one. I don't have internet banking and don't have very much of a financial presence online, and, as such, I don't care that much about…

> It turns out I cannot "reload" any of those offloaded apps if any one of them doesn't support my iOS version anymore.

You can – unless the application publisher decides to disable this. It sounds like Facebook disabled your ability to install an older version of WhatsApp that supports the version of iOS you are running. All it would take for this to work for you is for somebody at Facebook to tick a single box that allows their users to do this.

Re: “It’s time for Apple to fix texting”

#915

Post by hbn »

acdha wrote: post #894
rat9988 wrote: post #870

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple turns texts between iPhones and Android phones into SMS and MMS, out-of-date technologies from the 90s and 00s. But Apple can adopt RCS—the modern industry standard—for these threads instead. Solving the problem without changing your iPhone to iPhone conversations and making messaging better for everyone. At some point we should require people to tell us whether they have read the link or not so we can know if…

> But Apple can adopt RCS—the modern industry standard—for these threads instead. Ah, yes, the “industry standard” which relies on proprietary extensions made by Google which are only implemented in one of Google’s applications, and whose carrier adoption figures are based on Google hosting the servers. RCS is better, but don’t oversell this as more than Google’s attempt to pressure Apple into helping them recover fr…

Indeed. Ron Amadeo has done a lot of in-depth coverage of Google's RCS push the past few years, and he brings up some very good points I didn't see talked about much. Here's the latest article about Google's new campaign:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/08/new-google-site-begs...

I said in another comment that Google continuing to call RCS a "standard" is disingenuous. What they're really pushing for is Apple implementing Google's proprietary fork of RCS, where most messages are routed through their own servers. That doesn't sound like a standard to me and I don't see why Apple would/should go for that.

Re: “It’s time for Apple to fix texting”

#916

Post by acdha »

hbn wrote: post #915
acdha wrote: post #894

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But Apple can adopt RCS—the modern industry standard—for these threads instead. Ah, yes, the “industry standard” which relies on proprietary extensions made by Google which are only implemented in one of Google’s applications, and whose carrier adoption figures are based on Google hosting the servers. RCS is better, but don’t oversell this as more than Google’s attempt to pressure Apple into helping them recover fr…

Indeed. Ron Amadeo has done a lot of in-depth coverage of Google's RCS push the past few years, and he brings up some very good points I didn't see talked about much. Here's the latest article about Google's new campaign: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/08/new-google-site-begs... I said in another comment that Google continuing to call RCS a "standard" is disingenuous. What they're really pushing for is Apple im…

It’s also telling how they punted on the things people want like support for all of their devices or need, like E2E for all chats rather than just one on one.

Imagine an alternate universe where they backed a dump truck full of cash over to the Signal Foundation and said “hire all of the developers you need to make first-class desktop clients and add federation for people willing to meet CA-level requirements. We’ll ship integration in Messenger and Gmail this year.” Apple would have a lot more pressure from something which is open and better rather than a marketing play for a Google subsidiary.

Re: “It’s time for Apple to fix texting”

#917

Post by dbg31415 »

You know what's really funny? As a Google Fi user for all my cell coverage, but an Apple user for all my phones... Google doesn't let iPhone users send SMS messages to Android users out of the box. They've done something custom to their network that mucks up the ability to user an iPhone to send messages.

Anyway they're just as guilty as Apple of trying to manipulate users, this whole campaign is just PR. They don't like the fact that their users show up as inferior green-bubbles on Apple devices.

But really, these are separate platforms at this point. iMessage, Facebook Messenger, Signal, Snapchapt, AIM, ICQ, whatever else the kids are using today... you can't send messages between them all.

And look, dumbing communications down so they aren't using end-to-end encryption has consequences.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/10/23299502/facebook-chat-me...

Re: “It’s time for Apple to fix texting”

#918

Post by altairprime »

mantas wrote: post #776
comex wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can disable Secure Boot on a Mac and still use iMessage. In this state, it would still be theoretically possible to attest to some kind of unique hardware ID, as the Secure Enclave is still locked down. But even if it weren't, it would be good enough to just distribute a unique key with each device. Sure you could take it off the device, but who cares? If it got banned, you'd still need to buy a new device for a…

iMessage works on Hackintosh too

Spamming doesn’t, however, as it requires a lot of serial number lookups and creates a very identifiable trail of behavior just to get a single device working. Scaling that process up to spamming would be unprofitable and risk being caught.

Re: “It’s time for Apple to fix texting”

#919

Post by jvolkman »

tommit wrote: post #839
jvolkman wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from better media, typing indicators, etc., RCS allows richer metadata (like content types) and various side channels (AFAIK) that allow extensions like E2E to be added. SMS is just 160 characters. I believe Google will share their E2E spec with others. They published an overview a while ago [1], but presumably they'd offer more to someone wanting to actually implement it. 1: https://www.gstatic.com/messages/pa…

Better media is a valid point, but I feel like mentioning typing indicators right after totally takes away from it. It felt so out of place in the article as well. Sorry, but who gives a fuck? All you need to do is wait a couple more seconds and you will know whether the recipient got your message, because in 99/100 cases, guess what follows the typing indicator? A message. I honestly do not get the benefit. If anyth…

I find them useful. To each their own, I suppose.

Re: “It’s time for Apple to fix texting”

#920

Post by paganel »

skinnymuch wrote: post #899
paganel wrote: post #796

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You say this like it is a bad thing. It has been a bad thing for me because iOS decided to get me off Whtasapp and forced me using the much worse Apple message system without me having any say in it. I have a SE and a relatively older iOS version on it, can't remember exactly which one. I don't have internet banking and don't have very much of a financial presence online, and, as such, I don't care that much about…

I’ve been able to download apps that require newer OSes on iPhone. If I have downloaded it before, it lets me download the last compatible version. Is this not the case with WhatsApp or somethinh

Yes, I have the “cloud”-y thingie close to the WhatsApp icon, meaning is offloaded. When clicking on the item to “load” it again it tries to do just that, only to give me a “Unable to download” message (or something similar) a few seconds later. I’ve tried searching for the app directly in the AppStore, I cannot find it anymore, presumably because of that older iOS I have running. Forgot to mention, the same happened to me with the Google Maps (?!) app also last year or so.
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