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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#911

Post by noduerme »

aj7 wrote: post #835
fma wrote: post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was probably accurate "back in the day". My wife owns/runs an after school learning center and I can say that 1st/2nd generation take extra-curricular activities very seriously. That is not to say academic is out the window, but academics is not the only interest. As a matter of fact - I wrote a letter of recommendation for someone to volunteer at the library. Due to the competitive nature (I live in an area wit…

Yes. Preparing for internship culture. Your wife’s hamsters pay to run on the hamster wheel. And your family benefits!

Cultures that value education also value unpaid internships. It's an excellent trade. Free education in exchange for free labor.

Yes, this has been extremely exploited in America, particularly in tech, where it has:

- Created a sense that some work should be "free", hiding the true cost of labor from employers

- Turned students into an endless pool to be exploited

- Undercut the wages of professionals

That being said, the answer is for the student interns to recognize when it's time for them to be paid and to demand it. A lot of Americans think interning is just about getting your "foot in the door" so you "know the right people" and get a leg up on a cushy job. That's simply not the way immigrant families think. There is a value proposition to interning for free when you're learning a trade. It's how I started. When I came to feel I was being exploited, I asked for money, and got it.

>> Preparing for internship culture

This quote itself implies that you're not willing to put in the effort other people are willing to put in. So now, as an employer, why would I hire someone who didn't feel like putting in the extra work for their resume? I suppose you're owed a job - but then, isn't everyone?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#912

Post by wh313 »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #910
wh313 wrote: post #898

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you share some sources for that assertion?

The second half is well sourced.

Maybe it's just that my search skills are subpar, but I can't seem to find any relevant works on Google Scholar. Would you mind taking the time to share some of these sources?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#913

Post by roflulz »

grego61 wrote: post #212

One way that rich parents can game SAT/ACT is through aggressive seeking of test accommodations for disabilities. There was common knowledge of up to 50% of test takers having extended time in some affluent private schools in the SF Bay Area prior to the Covid pause.

isn't that already the case for all grades? and all extracurriculars? (i.e., picking teams that allow anyone to join, or giving students who couldn't make the cut a pity position on a team such as `team manager` so they can add it to their college application?)

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#914

Post by noduerme »

ramraj07 wrote: post #634
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

So someone who plays drums in band or throws an egg shaped “ball” (or worse, hits themselves in the head like rams) is contributing to the society than someone who focuses on tests? I’m not even on the side of the Asian families that force their children to study and study alone, but your comment seems to suggest that somehow they don’t have the right to (or are abusing a system). Sounds a bit prejudiced. In the end…

I think it was intended to be prejudiced - he was sarcastically saying that the parents don't care about integrating into the culture, they think they can attain success for their children with tests alone.

I'm a child of Jewish immigrants. I had NO planned school/extracurricular activities except for music. I had these requirements from elementary school through high school: (1) Never get less than a B+ on any test or any class, or you're grounded. (2) Read 50 pages of books my father would assign every night, some light fiction, some history, everything in between, and spend 15 minutes reporting what I read to him. (3) No television or video games. A computer was okay as long as I was using it to "work", which could mean writing my own video games. (4) Find a job the day you turn 15, and work every day. Any job you want. Ideally something that deals with the public, like selling shoes. (I went into advertising).

Now, some of my best friends in high school were Korean immigrants. They had a lot more fun than me, but they also studied a lot harder for tests. By no means would I ever think their parents were doing it wrong.

What this sarcastic poster means about the society you live in, is ultimately very shady. The society he lives in is lazy. It doesn't want to study or work. It cries foul when people ask for "welfare handouts", but meanwhile, he is asking for a welfare handout from us the people who work and study harder - by means of claiming it's his culture and we're just here doing all the math right while failing to integrate. That's just not true. It's sour grapes from someone who has been eclipsed in all areas of intellectual and artistic achievement, and is likely to soon be eclipsed in the realm of popular culture as well.

So anyway /rant over. I wouldn't take it too seriously. Just keep doing what you do well.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#915

Post by noduerme »

linksnapzz wrote: post #598
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

If you recast your civilization as simply the sum total of the economic activity generated by fungible worker-units, that's the sort of thing you get. A giant. somewhat dilapidated luxury shopping mall with a military attached.

I suppose you also get lazy cultural analysis like this from armchair patriots...

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#916

Post by johnnyanmac »

lightup wrote: post #792
johnnyanmac wrote: post #724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Beware of being penalized for trying. Is that a lesson you will teach your kids? Life is going to teach it one way or another, and Picard's words stand even more true as I enter my 30's as they were back when I was an angsty 14YO just trying to stay with my friends before Mom's job forces her out of state... again. Took me a while to realize I wasn't being punished for not studying enough and that this was simply a…

Make it so! Those words?!

sorry for the late response. These words: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TCX90yALsI

Or rather in text form:

>"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life"

But it sounds so much better coming from the captain's mouth.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#917

Post by hiq »

alecbz wrote: post #113
hiq wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is the current push back against coding tests in job hiring Is there such a pushback? As in, is the percentage of the workforce refusing to take such tests increasing?

I don't know if there's a _rising_ pushback but you definitely do hear a not-small amount of complaining about coding interviews on HN.

Sure, but all in all, you just need 100 frequent HN users hating on these interviews to fill all related threads with such complaints, and there are dozens of millions of SWE worldwide. Big tech companies still hire mostly based on this type of interviews and they've been growing a lot lately, meaning that enough people apply to them. Leetcode and the likes have also democratized the process for many candidates.

If anything, I'd say that the proportion of the workforce willing to submit themselves to these tests is increasing, but that's just a guess.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#918

Post by BeFlatXIII »

tqi wrote: post #894
agar wrote: post #723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thread is filled with people arguing false dichotomies: "test scores" vs. "fancy extra-curriculars" or "rich experiences" vs. "working class experiences." I recently saw one child into college, and have another on the way. I've spoken to many admissions officers, counselors, and similar folks making admissions choices for public and private universities. To a one, they all claim to be looking for two things: (1)…

> Some of the least interesting students are "box checkers" who have a bunch of disconnected extra-curriculars that don't show passion, direction, or a proclivity towards success. If a student defines "success" as "getting into college," then what will they do once they get there? Probably flounder. This comment really rubbed me the wrong way. Sorry these "box checkers" worked too hard to follow the rules of the game…

Counterpoint: box-checkers are no fun to have as classmates.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#919

Post by BeFlatXIII »

aj7 wrote: post #613
davesque wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course the real tragedy is that we fixate so much on college This is what gets me. The whole concept of college, and especially selective, high profile colleges such as Harvard, MIT, etc., seems antiquated and almost entirely manufactured at this point. It's artificially crafted scarcity designed to create a market and brand. I feel the true, primary function of these institutions is to give the rich and powerfu…

No no no. The thesis topics are in graduate schools are more cutting edge, and the opportunity to interact with real science as an undergraduate are invaluable. I would tend to agree that excelling at a second tier university with a comprehensive program is an acceptable start. It generally gets you to a higher level. Competitiveness is about speed. Anyone can look something up. It’s about knowing things right off th…

What does this have to do with the parent comment?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#920

Post by BeFlatXIII »

542458 wrote: post #569
vxNsr wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is kinda how medical residency is filled in the US, med students rank their top choices, residency programs rank their’s. It’s called The Match, and generally results in a very fair equitable outcome.

While the match isn’t completely terrible, it still has some pretty bad qualities. The most notable one is the “pay for applications” issue. The odds of getting into your top picks is constantly declining, and so the dominant strategy is to apply to many residencies to maximize your chance of a successful match - the number of picks the average applicant submits has doubled in the past 15 years. But applying to more…

A layman’s read of the “pick arms race” is that it’s not just like regular keyword-stuff job applications spammed through online recruitment portals.
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