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Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#911

Post by account42 »

sgift wrote: post #608

At the end of the day the main problem of Firefox is that it fights against companies (ab)using their market power in one market to foster their browser on people. - Google: Try to use anything made by them with another browser and without a blocker and see how long it takes until you get the "SURF BETTER WITH CHROME"-ads thrown into your face - Microsoft: Edge is pre-bundled and you get little nags in the Google sty…

Mozilla was able to gain market share against Microsoft before by targeting power users who then recommended FF to others (or just installed it for them) so I disagree that Mozilla's current disdain for power users is not relevant. Even if they would have lost the average user anyway, their own decisions is what is going to lose them the rest that is keeping them from obscurity.

I agree that competing with these megacorporations on their playing field is unrealistic, which is why Mozilla needs to start competing in places where these megacorporations don't want to. Mozilla's marketing department has already realized that privacy is one such area, but their developers and culture still need to catch up with that.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#912

Post by account42 »

MattyRad wrote: post #701

My 2 cents, I think the browser wars are lost, handily . We should start focusing on contingency plans. I don't think we all agree on what the impact of Firefox market share evaporation is, but my main concern is Google having totalitarian control of the internet: the Browser and Search. To combat that, I would focus on decreasing the reliance on browser specific tech (specifically: javascript, but also html/css, and…

> To combat that, I would focus on decreasing the reliance on browser specific tech (specifically: javascript, but also html/css, and maybe HTTP to a certain degree), ensuring that that the web can be browsed without being at the mercy of the client. Return to servers front-loading the entirety of web content. Obviously this would require a massive cultural shift.... The ethics of web dev would have to be shared by vegan-comparable evangelists. (I realize how unrealistic this is after typing it)

I don't think it is an easy thing to accomplish but a cultural shift away from depending on the latest tech is exactly what me need. Make not having good backwards compatibility as shameful as "works best with IE". Make it acceptable to run "old" software again and laughable to force users onto new versions in order to get security updates.

> I would also try to produce a PoC search engine that mercilessly punishes the ad-driven web, which - we've all noticed- is becoming increasingly pervasive.

Yes. There have been some search engines posted here for the old web, but I haven't yet seen one that primarily punishes based on ads.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#913

Post by eternityforest »

WorldMaker wrote: post #870
eternityforest wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple and Mozilla can't be compromised with. They want certain powerful features to just not exist. They don't trust users to choose for themselves. They are trying to ensure privacy at all costs by making tools that could be used to spy unavailable, no matter what the purpose. If devs want to make something, Chrome wants to make it happen, and I want to use it, then I don't want Mozilla trying to block up the whole…

> They don't trust users to choose for themselves. No, they don't trust advertisers and spyware companies (the two seem inseparable today) to choose for them. Google has a massive conflict of interest in being the web's largest advertising network owner and sometimes the web's largest spymaster, in addition to owning the web's most common browser. > What's next, are you going to disable downloading executable files,…

That's why you put things behind a permission system. If a site requires a spy permission to view content.... then the user can decide if privacy matters in this case.

Fingerprinting someone who doesn't care is already trivial. Just ask for their email or sign on with google or Facebook. Or don't even bother and just listen through the Google alarm clock. Or find us with our Tiles.

Mozilla wants to kill all spyware, but what about services that would probably cost a lot of money without spyware?

Unless you outlaw those(In which case I'd probably have some angry letters to write) or provide a cheap alternative... the kind of people who click "accept" on location access prompts are already spied on 8 different ways.

It's kind of an uphill losing fight to protect people from something most people like.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#914

Post by account42 »

sciurus wrote: post #702
tomxor wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

many users turn off that telemetry, including me.

It's an interesting question if the percentage of users with telemetry disabled has increased a meaningful amount over time. Mozilla has actually done some work to measure users with telemetry disabled; see the "telemetry coverage" section of https://blog.mozilla.org/data/2018/08/20/effectively-measuri... I'm not sure how frequently they've done this or if any of the data has been made public.

> Mozilla has actually done some work to measure users with telemetry disabled; see the "telemetry coverage" section of https://blog.mozilla.org/data/2018/08/20/effectively-measuri...

The fuck are they thinking. Disabling telemetry means not sending telemetry. NO. EXCUSES.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#915

Post by account42 »

cartesius13 wrote: post #508

I think Firefox is done. Not even the people who are the most enthusiastic about open web, software freedom etc. can be bothered to use Firefox. I still use it but I have a strong impression that a lot of people on HN and other tech spaces full of people who tend to care about this sort of thing are using Chrome. I'm not sure how they can morally justify contributing to the death of the open web by helping Google's m…

> I'm not sure how they can morally justify contributing to the death of the open web by helping Google's monopoly, but it seems inevitable at this point. Trully sad

I agree, Mozilla should stop taking Google's money.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#916

Post by account42 »

qudat wrote: post #329

I would stop chasing the browser as an OS and try to break the many uses of a browser into multiple sub apps, with specifications to match. This is the reason why Gemini are gaining popularity: the scope is limited and focused on doing one thing well.

> This is the reason why Gemini are gaining popularity: the scope is limited and focused on doing one thing well.

Speaking of, firefox should support alternative web protocols (again), even if they are not used much.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#917

Post by account42 »

pruthvishetty wrote: post #603

It's in Google's best interest to save Firefox and, in turn, save itself from anti-trust/monopoly allegations in the near future.

Nah it's in Google's best interest to keep FF on life support and even for that they don't need FF specifically.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#918

Post by account42 »

gkoberger wrote: post #274

I used to work at Mozilla, and here's my opinion. There's no need to save Firefox. When Firefox came out, it was a breath of fresh air. Because of Mozilla, every browser is now really, really great. Even Microsoft's browser is standards compliant and open source! Yeah, I get the arguments that Webkit is too pervasive and Chrome is too tied to Google and all of that... but in my opinion, Mozilla wanted a world where e…

> a world where every single consumer had the choice between numerous high-quality browsers, and that's the world we currently live in!

I strongly disagree. There are numerous browsers than can render websites well enough but not a single one that puts the needs of user first before everything else.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#919

Post by nikau »

antupis wrote: post #220
loudtieblahblah wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all that is left is chromium, then you can kiss what is left of web standards good bye. Google will set the standard, taking input from any other tech player big enough to have a seat at the table. Its bad enough ISO certification boards and official positions of the W3C can be bought or corrupted. Let there be only one engine, controlled by Google? And even the pretense of a open and fair playing field goes away.…

Yeah we would get "IE6" from google not like first 2-4 years but soonish.

Difference is Chrome source is available to fork if Google cross the line.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#920

Post by pritambaral »

account42 wrote: post #914
sciurus wrote: post #702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an interesting question if the percentage of users with telemetry disabled has increased a meaningful amount over time. Mozilla has actually done some work to measure users with telemetry disabled; see the "telemetry coverage" section of https://blog.mozilla.org/data/2018/08/20/effectively-measuri... I'm not sure how frequently they've done this or if any of the data has been made public.

> Mozilla has actually done some work to measure users with telemetry disabled; see the "telemetry coverage" section of https://blog.mozilla.org/data/2018/08/20/effectively-measuri ... The fuck are they thinking. Disabling telemetry means not sending telemetry. NO. EXCUSES.

It's basically a `if (random() > threshold) POST cookie-less-origin/telemetry-{{ telemetry_enabled() ? "enabled" : "disabled"}}`.

I don't consider this telemetry. It does not keep any data on you, track you over time, or even fingerprint you.

I think this is a great way to get an approximate usage stat, while preserving privacy, respecting the no-telemetry choice, and keeping network overhead ridiculously low.

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