Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds • Hacker News Board

Re: Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds

#911

Post by lmm » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 7:26 AM UTC

abrokenpipe wrote: post #905

lmm wrote: post #881

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm, what? Firearms causing more deaths than drunk drivers seems like a very strong argument for tighter gun regulation to me.

Then why isn't there any serious discussion about tighter alcohol regulation then? The CDC says that alcohol abuse in the US results in ~95,000 deaths per year, combined with drunk driving thats over 100k deaths, thats significantly higher than all gun deaths. On top of that it's difficult to argue there is any utility to it at all beyond recreational use. Where are the cries to ban alcohol?? Wouldn't it be worth ban…

The same reason there isn't serious discussion about voter competency tests: US politics is traumatised by the specific history of that particular kind of law.

(Though IMO you're focusing on the wrong half. Drink-driving deaths don't show that alcohol is dangerous, they show that cars are dangerous - you only have to look at the number of non-alcohol-related driving deaths to see that.)

Re: Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds

#912

Post by DanBC » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 7:43 AM UTC

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #895

comrh wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Murder rate isn't the whole story. Check out the suicide rate, how gun ownership affects a successful attempt and who is killing themselves in the US.

This argument has to be the worst out of all the anti gun arguments. We going to ban rope next? Ban trains, since it's a bit too easy to step in front of one? Knives? If someone wants to kill their self, there are innumerable easy ways to do so. It's even likely in most households you could hang yourself quicker than you could get to your gun, if that's really what you wanted. Giving up the right to own a gun so that…

Removing access to means and method is an important suicide prevention measure.

Method substitution doesn't work like you think it does.

Your answer is anti-science. You don't have any evidence to support it.

Re: Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds

#913

Post by DanBC » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 7:45 AM UTC

natmaka wrote: post #857

thebooktocome wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland's famous assault rifles are not kept with ammunition, and are mostly useless. (I suppose you could bludgeon a home invader with one.) Firearms are more heavily regulated there than in most of Europe. "He shakes out the gun holster. "And we don't get bullets any more," he adds. "The Army doesn't give ammunition now - it's all kept in a central arsenal." This measure was introduced by Switzerland's Federal…

As far as I know and saw in Switzerland the army doesn't give ammo anymore to militiamen (maybe because some over-used it, or maybe due to long-term storage issues) but they are able to buy it, and many do. Moreover there is a mandatory training programme (a few weeks each year), including shooting exercises. Security-related matters aren't neglected, lowering the accident rates. After his term a militiamen can buy t…

> In Switzerland a prominent argument (maybe the most prominent) of people willing to ban weapons is the amount of suicides by firearms. However suicide rates in heavily-armed Switzerland are at worst equal to those of not-heavily-armed nations such as the UK, Germany and France ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r... )

A note of gentle caution: you can't compare suicide rates across countries because there are big differences in methods of counting deaths.

Re: Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds

#914

Post by frosted-flakes » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 7:48 AM UTC

abrokenpipe wrote: post #907

frosted-flakes wrote: post #843

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would expect drunk-driving deaths to far exceed firearm homicides, and it's honestly shocking that firearm homicides are that high. I think the stats show that it's not blown out of propertion.

Why would you expect that when drunk driving gets practically no attention at all? It's even socially acceptable and joked about within certain cultural circles.

That's exactly my point. Drink driving is not uncommon, to the point where it's acceptable to some parts of society. But no part of society believes intent to kill with a gun is acceptable, yet despite the heavy scrutiny it receives, firearm homicides are still way higher than drunk driving deaths.

I know that these numbers are not directly comparable, but given the deadly nature of automobiles in general, I expected drunk-driving deaths to be somewhere around 50000 per year.

Re: Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds

#915

Post by DanBC » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 8:03 AM UTC

mardifoufs wrote: post #822

spyder wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, that's so crazy and sad: "Men who own handguns are eight times more likely to die of gun suicides than men who don’t own handguns, and women who own handguns are 35 times more likely than women who don’t." https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-owner... :-( Also: "Sixty percent of deaths from firearms in the U.S. are suicides." So if somebody dies from a firearm in the US it's more likely to be s…

Yet US Suicide rates are comparable to those of Sweden, Finland, Norway, Canada. A big higher but very very close. So I don't see how guns matter in that case. If they did matter to the actual decision of killing yourself or not, you'd see an actual correlation worldwide. Also, I'm not sure if the stats account for people buying guns just to kill themselves. Like is it only including long time owners? Otherwise I aga…

> Yet US Suicide rates are comparable to those of Sweden, Finland, Norway, Canada.

US has a narrow definition for death by suicide that requires knowledge of intent. Compare the US definition with the UK definition.

US: "Suicide is a death caused by self-directed injurious behavior with any intent to die as a result" https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicideTechnicalP...

UK: "this includes all deaths from intentional self-harm for persons aged 10 years and over and deaths caused by injury or poisoning where the intent was undetermined for those aged 15 years and over." https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde...

> The message it sends is that having a gun in your house makes it more likely for you to commit suicide.

Yes. It's well established in suicide research that preventing access to means and methods is an important suicide prevention measure. Which suicide prevention research have you recently read?

Re: Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds

#916

Post by neonbones » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 8:04 AM UTC

chmod600 wrote: post #741

neonbones wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the informative answer. Cant the "roots" be also in segregation problems before? If I remember correctly what I learned early, it was called something like "red lining" created "bad neighborhoods" in cities. >My guess is that Ukrainians just don't have time for that kind of nonsense. If someone is violent, they are put away quickly. It is mostly true for Ukraine. But the real curse, as I said, is not organ…

"Cant the "roots" be also in" Maybe, but it's not relevant. Let's all fix the root problems, but let's not create a dependency on it. If we want to solve a problem, we have to solve the problem in the reality we have (flawed as it is), not the reality we want. "The biggest problem in Ukraine is domestic violence." Sad to hear. Going back to the main topic, it seems like you might be suggesting that women owning guns…

> If we want to solve a problem, we have to solve the problem in the reality we have (flawed as it is), not the reality we want.

I totally agree here. It's not better than typical procrastination with waiting for "ideal env" to do anything. It won't happen. The "magic monday" when it's will be the best time to solve a problem won't happen. You try to solve it, or you don't.

>it seems like you might be suggesting that women owning guns might be a solution to that problem?

I'm not sure about that one. Would it actually help women in that situation? I'm not even sure if that won't just create additional problems without any help for the original case.

Re: Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds

#917

Post by disgruntledphd2 » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 8:08 AM UTC

orangepurple wrote: post #716

sho_hn wrote: post #666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the same in the US, and basically every country in the world. Some places are dangerous, others aren't. No, it's really not. I spent a number of years living in Seoul, and you can have a 25 million people metro area with virtually no areas you wouldn't go to alone at night. They may exist, somewhere, but you really have to struggle to find them. That plus no loud and aggressive people on the streets, basically…

Seoul is a collectivist society without "diversity." You can't compare it to the US. Shootings are highly concentrated in "diverse" neighborhoods.

diverse == poor, right?

I find it very interesting that race is so front and center in the US, while class hides behind it and rarely gets mentioned.

Re: Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds

#918

Post by rowanG077 » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 8:30 AM UTC

chmod600 wrote: post #73

There's something admirable about the idea that a government would not take away all the guns. The idea that people should not have to give up all of their ability to fight. The idea that people should not be entirely dependent on police for their defense. And the idea that physically weaker people (often women) can defend themselves against the strong. Does this idea work? Surprisingly well. If you had to guess the…

If I would live in the US it's not being murdered by some random I would be worried about. It's the cops that are badly trained and because of the very high possibility of someone having a gun are incredibly trigger happy.

Re: Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds

#919

Post by koonsolo » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 8:53 AM UTC

chmod600 wrote: post #73

There's something admirable about the idea that a government would not take away all the guns. The idea that people should not have to give up all of their ability to fight. The idea that people should not be entirely dependent on police for their defense. And the idea that physically weaker people (often women) can defend themselves against the strong. Does this idea work? Surprisingly well. If you had to guess the…

US always needs to think black and white. Either you are free to have guns, or you cannot have any guns. This is not true at all.

I'm a gun owner in Europe. First I needed to be member of a shooting range for 6 months. Then I have to pass a theoretical and practical exam. Then the people I live with have to sign that I can own guns. Plus, I need to have a clean criminal record. To keep my guns, I need to go shooting 12 times a year, and every 4 years my doctor has to approve that I'm mentally stable to keep them. There are also very strict rules on where I keep my guns an ammo, and where I can transport them.

Do I like all the effort I have to put into this? No. Do I prefer that over giving crazy and/or incompetent people guns? Yes.

Re: Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds

#920

Post by lr4444lr » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:26 AM UTC

tootie wrote: post #806

lr4444lr wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did the homicide rate drop occur after the increasing restriction, or was it already low/dropping?

The laws are pretty old so I doubt there's reliable data. Australia has a clearer case. Firearm deaths definitely decreased after a 1996 law that pulled hundreds of thousands of weapons off the street. Rates were already decreasing before the ban but seemed to drop faster after. It wasn't a dramatic change and can't be directly attributed to the law. I'll say this other thing though. Rates of violence aside, first wo…

We are trying to get at causality here. Even in thr Australia case, I have to ask, did crimes committed by _illegally_ owned firearms decrease after the law? Much as we can productively debate who should or should not be allowed to own a firearm, I don't think there's much disagreement that there is some class of people who _shouldn't_.