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Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index

cbeci.org

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Re: Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index

#911
A simple "back of the envelope" power use calculation of the possible power use of the bitcoin network, using the total hash rate from https://www.coinwarz.com/mining/bitcoin/hashrate-chart ( 151.55 EH/s ) and assuming all Antminer S19 (110 TH/s for 3250 watts)

gives me a total power use of 0.00445 TWH which is very different to the 121 TWH on the cbeci site.. even given the efficiency range of mining gear (like if spread of included hw included stuff 10 x less efficient), cooling systems etc, what am I missing? I dont do these power calculations often so have a left a parameter out?

Re: Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index

#912

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok here is a puzzle: is there any electricity provider who accepts BTC? BTC runs on fiat money.

The goal is for everyone to accept it, but bitcoin is still on a journey to become store of value and medium of exchange.

it'd be a very long journey. the deflationary nature of btc means that people generally don't want to pay in btc, since it would be expected to become more valuable in the future.

Re: Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index

#913

Nic Carter's rebuttal to a Bloomberg comparison between Bitcoin/Visa, including assessments of total and per/transaction energy usage: "First of all, Bitcoin and Visa are fundamentally different systems. Bitcoin is a complete, self-contained monetary settlement system; Visa transactions are non-final credit transactions that rely on external underlying settlement rails. Visa relies on ACH, Fedwire, SWIFT, the global…

Nic Carter's point is intentionally obtuse and belies his conflicted interests.

The reality is that if you scaled up the bitcoin system linearly so it provided as much transaction capacity as Visa (let alone the entire world economy) [edit or rather worded differently if each Visa transaction consumed as much power as a Bitcoin transaction], it would require a number of times more power than the entire world produces, and produce as much e-waste as the entire world put together. Obviously this is not how bitcoin scales because even if you did that it would still process 7 tps.

That is, however, proof that it is drastically less efficient on a per transaction basis even factoring in any and all possible externalities including the army and mining and the fed (lol). This is a proof by contradiction.

Anything else is a talking point and also trivially falsifiable. The US Army protects the US not the dollar and its budget would not be reduced in a Bitcoin powered world. Neither would its oil consumption because tanks don't fill up on bitcoins.

The ubiquity of the dollar specifically is also irrelevant as we're not comparing crypto to US Dollars but rather to well-managed fiat systems. Any and all. Not just one albeit dominant one.

This is obvious stuff if you think about it for a half second without trying to justify the unjustifiable.

Re: Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index

#914
post #315
post #7

Question that came to mind after reading the headline: could this become a future reason for governments to criminalise the trading / use of Bitcoin because of negative environmental effects? On the surface it seems the value of Bitcoin is directly tied to its energy consumption and thus environmental harm. I get that Bitcoin itself is decentralised and cannot be banned outright. But could it be neutered in such a wa…

The Bitcoin guy is going to be the second place after Thomas Midgley Jr [1][2] in terms of most damage done to Earth by an individual I reckon. Is there no way to slim down the resource requirements to cut electrical use? (without breaking everything Bitcoin of course) - [1] He played a major role in developing leaded gasoline (Tetraethyllead) and some of the first chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) [2] Environmental histori…

> Is there no way to slim down the resource requirements to cut electrical use?

To put it bluntly (not meant to sound blunt, I just can't think of a better example without reiterating a technical explanation of how bitcoin works), that's like asking if people living in the Sahara can't simply drink less water to solve the unavailability of fresh water. And even that's a bad comparison because the human body actually can actually make due with less water. Perhaps it's like an electric heater (not heat pump, just a plain old heater), if you know how these things work: if you make it use fewer Watts, you get less heat, because there is no "waste heat" because heat is what you want in the first place. So fewer Watts is always less heat no matter how you spin it.

Similarly, putting more power into Bitcoin makes you earn more money (as a miner). If we make the hashing algorithm more efficient, then the hash rate will just raise proportionally to meet the new supply (supply being the block reward + transaction fees, both in bitcoin (or whatever proof-of-work currency you're mining) that you receive when finding a block as a miner).

No, the alternative is moving away from proof of work. I've been hearing stuff about proof of stake for years now, and afaik there are some currencies already using it. Not sure why Bitcoin doesn't switch to it, I'm not keeping up. Lost interest back when it became clear what a disaster it is and that it won't be able to fulfill its original purpose anyway. I'm very surprised the price is still soaring, shouldn't the best currency win? I guess people just don't give a fuck about their non-direct impact and see it as a way to get rich quick.

Re: Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index

#915

At that rate and assuming 4tx per second a single Bitcoin transaction consumes 165kWh. A Tesla battery is bit over 50kWh. So let's round that to 3 full charges of Tesla battery. That's 350km/220 miles of range per charge. In total 1050km or 660 miles of driving. So basically if you want to transfer money and the recipient is closer than 660 miles from you it's more efficient to just get a bunch of bills, drive there…

Say you want to transfer a billion dollars 3000 miles. A billion dollars is 10 million Benjamins, which weighs 10 tons. You're not fitting that in a Tesla. More likely, you'll put it in an armored car and hire a few armed guards to go along with it. If you need to transport it overseas, you need a freighter (and a week) too. Now the energy cost of that Bitcoin transaction doesn't seem so bad. The institutional intere…

> Say you want to transfer a billion dollars 3000 miles.

I don't. You don't. Nobody does. In the one-off case that you do, we can special-case it, instead of blowing energy on every single transaction as though everyone did.

You’re arguing we should be zipping around town in a car with a W12 engine in case somebody wants to drag race an airplane.

Re: Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index

#916

When arguing with a Bitcoin-fanatic, try this line: "Yeah I agree that cryptocurrencies are interesting, perhaps some day one will replace the USD. It will probably not be Bitcoin, but rather some other cryptocurrency“. Watch how they recoil! For they have been found out, they do not actually care for financial freedom, etc., all these noble crypto goals which can also be achieved with a cryptocurrency that is not Bi…

> It‘s probably Yay, I was the 1%!

Until I left in like 2015 when it became clear what a disaster it is and that it won't be able to fulfill its original purpose anyway. I'm very surprised the price is still soaring, shouldn't the best currency win? You seem to be right about the 99% idea, though the remaining 1% is not a true believer (you can't seriously be interested in the tech and miss this little fact) but rather people blinded by the additional promise of getting rich.

Re: Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index

#917
post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first paragraph is a fair consideration. The second is a complete stretch. It's not as if America would suddenly stop providing military support to Saudi Arabia if we suddenly switched to bitcoin. An America that historically used Bitcoin would be even more incentivized to "secure" fossil fuel nations.

It's not as if America would suddenly stop providing military support to Saudi Arabia if we suddenly switched to bitcoin. No, but now that the US is a net petroleum exporter, puling the plug on the whole Middle East is a real possibility.

Not all oil is the same. There's a reason that while Canada is massively a net exporter of oil (especially to the United States), boats from the Middle East show up on the regular. Common misconception. [1]

[1] https://www.aboutpipelines.com/en/blog/why-does-canada-impor...

Re: Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index

#918
post #870

There's lots of misdirected anger these last few days towards Bitcoin. First, the only thing that's energy-intensive about Bitcoin is block production. Making transactions, relaying them, validating them and storing them have negligible energy cost. Second, nothing about the Bitcoin protocol requires block production to use fossil fuels. Just like with every other energy-intensive industry , the problem isn't the ind…

> Let's get some laws passed to require miners in your area to use only renewable energy

Even if every major country on earth requires PoW systems to use renewable electricity (which won't happen any time soon in the first place) and can't run on the regular mixed grid, then after switching to countries without such laws (until there are none left), the renewable energy will be bought up at the source and the coal and gas plants will continue to supply everyone else. Nothing changes.

We need to change everything else to renewable before this really starts to be effective. It would make a much bigger impact if some countries, where users want to use cryptocurrency, make it illegal to use proof-of-work-based goods or currencies (whatever it's classified as). Suddenly a coin with PoS or something else becomes much more popular and we might, perhaps, shift over to a digital coin that is not a climate disaster.

Re: Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index

#919
post #229

Energy consumption doesn't cause emissions. Energy production causes emissions. Reducing consumption (by shaming it, in this case) means less investment in production, because there's less demand. This could slow the green energy transition.

That makes no sense. We don't have enough renewable electricity yet to replace existing electricity consumers, and 90% of energy consumption is non-electricity and will still need to be switched over to be electric (insofar as we can), let alone if we invent a new waste of electricity in the form of a get-rich-quick-scheme. We don't need more problems.

Don't use proof of work systems, or admit that you're in it for your personal gain and the planet can turn to semi-literal hell for all you care.

Re: Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index

#920
post #282
post #169

Remember, the earth is burning. Crypto is a huge environmental issue.

It's completely meaningless because GWh aren't interchangeable. A hydro o thermal energy source too far from inhabited places could be used for bitcoin mining and its CO2 footprint would be near zero. I'm not saying you are wrong but this requires a far more exhaustive analysis.

There are transmission losses, but they're not that great.

Please point out which power plants were built especially for proof of work mining. The others were apparently built with something else in mind and their power is now being wasted on western people's get-rich-quick schemes.

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