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Terminating Service for 8Chan

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Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#911

Post by root_axis »

partiallypro wrote: post #878
ajross wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The shooters in Poway, Christchurch and El Paso didn't post their screeds via Tor, and weren't radicalized on onion sites. They went to 8chan, because that was more easily understood, widely accessed, and had a larger community. It's the community that matters here, not the technology. The issue isn't whether or not it's possible for two nutjobs to converse in some way, obviously they can. It's whether or not there i…

Those communities will just be driven underground, more than likely, to Tor sites and be much harder to track. At least once 4Chan and 8Chan are pushed out.

> Those communities will just be driven underground

So what? Those communities existed underground for decades and have only recently been pushed back into the mainstream. Being underground means it has less visibility to the mainstream and is thus less likely to influence people.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#912

Post by Ajedi32 »

x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #898
Ajedi32 wrote: post #837

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As has been explained in this thread multiple times now, Free Speech is a principle, not a law. If, for example, someone in North Korea spoke against their government and was executed for it, that'd be a violation of Free Speech. Arguing "but North Korea doesn't have a law protecting people who speak against the government" would be ridiculous. Similarly, if a person or organization in the United States is silenced b…

I'm always amazed at how right wingers are all "property rights, property rights". And when something like this happens, they quickly switch from demanding that the property rights of CloudFlare be observed, to "free speech, free speech" concerning the conservatives on 8chan.

In this case, "property rights", as you put it are at odds with free speech. I don't think it would be ideologically inconsistent to believe that free speech trumps property rights in cases where the two principles conflict.

I also think there's a lot more nuance to this situation than you seem to be implying. I very much doubt there are a significant number of people ("right wingers" or otherwise) who believe property rights are the most important concern in all situations, nor are there many who believe in an absolute right to Free Speech at any cost. (The constitution itself allows for narrow exceptions for both of those rights.)

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#913

Post by pwinnski »

collyw wrote: post #886
ViViDboarder wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If reported, Reddit (the company) will usually moderate or shut down subs like those. Recent example being what they just did with /r/T_D.

I get the impression that Reddit only shuts down right wing leaning Reddits. I hear that there is plenty of calls for violence on left leaning ones such as late stage capitalism.

This is false, and perpetuating this falsehood without any direct knowledge ("I hear...") is shameful and unhelpful.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#914

Post by kickopotomus »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #885
Traster wrote: post #864

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very strange idea of what Free Speech is. The reason Free Speech is related to government is that government has a monopoly on violence. Government can turn up with guns at your house and stop you speaking in a way that no other body can. What is happening here is very different. Cloudflare isn't preventing anyone from saying anything. All that is happening is Cloudflare is using it's freedom of association…

Cloudflare may not be a monopoly, but they don't necessarily need to be a monopoly to be able to effectively police speech. A duopoly or oligopoly can be just as effective at that task, provided all competitors have similar rules about what sort of speech they disallow. Now maybe we're not quite at that point yet (after all, the Daily Stormer did eventually find a CDN that would take them), but we may very well be ge…

Nobody has a right to a CDN or a right to DDOS protection. Cloudflare is a private company offering a service in exchange for money. They may deny service to whomever they wish (with exceptions for certain protected classes). Political leanings and ideologies do not constitute a protected class. Neither Cloudflare, nor Google, nor FaceBook, nor Reddit, nor HN for that matter have any legal or moral obligation to grant a platform to anyone. A private platform reserves all rights to the content on their platform. If you have an issue with how that is policed or moderated then you are free to create your own competing service.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#915

Post by blaser-waffle »

amaccuish wrote: post #896
partiallypro wrote: post #878

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those communities will just be driven underground, more than likely, to Tor sites and be much harder to track. At least once 4Chan and 8Chan are pushed out.

Well no one is clearly tracking these people now when they post out in the open on *chan, so I'm not sure whether this is really such a problem.

Plenty of people are tracking the chans; 8chan's /k/ occasionally had a thread about feds using screenshots from various chans. I'd bet my shoes that a great deal of Open Source Intelligence types float around on /k/ and other politically oriented boards as a way of scoping up occasional gold nuggets and taking the temperature of things.

Someone is watching, but it's like panning gold from a river, except the gold is "Actionable Intelligence" and the river is high-pressure sewer main -- lots and lots of shit but little actual gold. High effort, but little yield.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#916

Post by zzzcpan »

dwild wrote: post #853
zzzcpan wrote: post #835

So much hypocrisy. When war mongering governments like US, Russia use Cloudflare for war propaganda websites that enable their wars and killings of lots and lots of people it doesn't bother Matthew Prince. Or when websites behind Cloudflare promote and sell lethal weapons that are the actual reason behind mass shootings even being possible, still doesn't bother him. But no, a dissident free speech activist website is…

> When war mongering governments like US, Russia use Cloudflare for war propaganda websites that enable their wars and killings of lots and lots of people Do you have a source for that?

I do and many. Here's one example I remember off the top of my head of a Russian war propaganda website hosted by Cloudflare https://rusvesna.su/ and it's much worse than those mass shootings glorifications. Cloudflare definitely received complaints, but no action. Because why would they actually care about people dying if it doesn't serve their political agenda?

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#917

Post by foozed »

Pigo wrote: post #888
cletus wrote: post #786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine if real life utilities did this. You don't have to imagine it. Literally all of these things happen. Examples: - Utilities restricting or even cutting off crypto miners (eg [1]) - Your phone service has prohibited uses that will get your service disconnected (eg see Section 8, Use of the Service in [2]). - Getting water cut off is more difficult but not impossible, I imagine. Some places will cut you off fo…

Something tells me online Antifa resources won't be affected just because one of their members committed a horrible atrocity in Dayton, OH shortly after El Paso.

Don't know where you're getting this from. All sources i could find talk about a twitter account that _could_ belong to the Dayton, OH shooter, on which he _follows_ Antifa members. You gotta admit that's pretty far from the relation of 8chan to the El Paso shooter...

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#918

Post by panarky »

sytelus wrote: post #494
panarky wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great example of the slippery-slope fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

I would disagree a bit. The concern here is that we are leaving doors wide open for businesses to deny service based on their beliefs. We are accepting that people have no right of due process of the law and businesses can just decide to act as judge and jury to punish anyone they desire based on their beliefs. It is likely that businesses will be never exploit the extreme and be benevolent in exercising this power.…

> wide open for businesses to deny service based on their beliefs

Should private businesses be required to disseminate terrorist recruitment material if it's not specifically outlawed?

There's a big difference between terrorist recruiting and coordination, and the peaceful debate of differing perspectives.

> crystal clear laws

This is an impossible standard.

I reject the implication that anything not explicitly prohibited by law must be perfectly moral and ethical.

It would truly be a dystopia if private individuals and businesses are prevented from making any moral or ethical judgments.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#919

Post by abootstrapper »

cambalache wrote: post #299
abootstrapper wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People of color, and LGBT are demographics. White supremacy is an ideology (a reprehensible one at that). People choose their ideology, not their race, or sexuality. They are not the same thing. Third party businesses should not feel any obligation to do business with "dudes who blabber" about the murdering and hate of others.

What about communists, anarchists, marxists, mormons, people who believe there are genetically based cognitive differences based on sex/race. What about people who are against abortion, against weed legalization, what about people who consider cops to be a civilian death squad used by the rich to oppress the poor. What about people who think the US Army is an occupation force in every place but America. Is OK to disc…

> Is OK to discriminate some of them?

If they promote violence and racism. Yes.

> Will you manage the API?

If I thought it would help, sure.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#920

Post by deegles »

Lazare wrote: post #560
blacklight86 wrote: post #525

What kind of free speech are we exactly advocating here? The freedom to spread cheap hate, fake news and bigotry against minorities? I'm sorry but moderating such offenses isn't a limitation to free speech. For the same reason why, if you start shouting nig or monkey to black people in a shopping mall, the police is likely to intervene and take you away - and I don't think that any sane person would argue that they'r…

> The freedom to spread cheap hate, fake news and bigotry against minorities? I'm sorry but moderating such offenses isn't a limitation to free speech. For the same reason why, if you start shouting nig or monkey to black people in a shopping mall, the police is likely to intervene and take you away - and I don't think that any sane person would argue that they're violating your freedom of speech. Popper taught us th…

What about hate speech spread by malicious foreign actors?
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