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Time to Take a Stand

blog.samaltman.com

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Re: Time to Take a Stand

#911

Post by CalChris »

splat wrote: post #865
CalChris wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last three Libertarian candidates for President are: 2016 former Republican Governor of New Mexico, Gary Johnson 2012 former Republican Governor of New Mexico, Gary Johnson 2008 former GOP House member and Clinton prosecutor Bobb Barr Gary Johnson ran as both a Republican and a Libertarian in 2008. Republican Ron Paul has run as a Libertarian. On the evidence, the Libertarian Party is a flag of convenience for Re…

I think your point here is a little disingenuous. (For reference I'm a longtime LP party member and have recently been getting very involved in the LP at the local level.) While it's true that the recent presidential nominees have all been former Republicans, the reason for this is that the Party has been wanting to put up respectable candidates who have experience. In its early years, the LP was effectively just an…

You think I'm being a little disingenuous? I think you're being a LOT disingenuous. It is VERY common for conservatives to espouse 'libertarian' principles as a criticism for liberals while then not applying those same principles to conservatives. And since you've been a libertarian for some time, I know you know what I mean.

Bob Barr, any sort of a libertarian? Please. He was the original drug warrior. Gary Johnson was quite willing to imprison drug offenders in New Mexico.

Sorry, but y'all get zero credit from this liberal. None. It isn't a third way. It's a flag of convenience. Reason was even bought by the Koch Foundation.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#912

Post by general_ai »

pavlov wrote: post #884
general_ai wrote: post #819

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who would you rather get to "keep the oil"? The country that sunk hundreds of billions into first destroying and then rebuilding Iraq, or some other country?

I'm not really sure what you're asking? The oil is in Iraq and by international law belongs to Iraq, not the USA or some other country. But even assuming that the USA should "keep the oil" -- how would that work in practice? You can't just pump it all out and make a quick exit. Estimates say that there is 140 billion barrels of the stuff. (That's over 22 cubic kilometres!) The United States would have to maintain an…

I don't mean just take it for free, that's not going to work. But I don't see why US companies should not receive a modicum of preferential treatment. As things are right now, US spent hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of American lives to remove Saddam, and then other countries (China, Russia, Turkey, etc) moved in and took advantage of the oil. That's idiotic.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#913

Post by WildUtah »

anigbrowl wrote: post #219
djrogers wrote: post #8

> In doing so, we should not demonize Trump voters—most of them voted for him for reasons other than the promise of a Muslim ban. We need their eventual support in resisting actions like these, and we will not get it if we further isolate them. This is very important people - calling everyone who voted for Trump a racist homophobe, a moron, and not deserving of the franchise is not going to help anything. I didn't vo…

I've sen a lot of angst over the last week about people on the left expressing approval for 'punching nazis' following Richard Spencer suffering a whack on the ear during a TV interview. It's true, someone, probably form the left, carried out an act of physical violence while he was just standing there talking. But let's not forget that Spencer and various members of his social circle have - for years now - been expr…

But let's not forget that Spencer and various members of his social circle have - for years now - been expressing approval

Actual Nazis liked to be punched by their opponents and even arrested by the cops for their nonviolent activism in the 1920s and early 1930s. They like the publicity for the same reason Gandhi and MLK liked it: It makes them sympathetic by exposing the evil behaviors of those that hate them.

Punching Spencer is a huge win for Spencer and the things Spencer stands for.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#914

Post by anigbrowl »

carsongross wrote: post #466
anigbrowl wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've sen a lot of angst over the last week about people on the left expressing approval for 'punching nazis' following Richard Spencer suffering a whack on the ear during a TV interview. It's true, someone, probably form the left, carried out an act of physical violence while he was just standing there talking. But let's not forget that Spencer and various members of his social circle have - for years now - been expr…

Punching nazis is OK. The left gets to decide who is a nazi. Punching commies is OK. The right gets to decide who is a commie. Welcome to 2017.

Richard Spencer has openly declared his White Nationalist aspirations, and is on video exhorting his supporters to party like it's 1933 and exchanging nazi salutes with them, with arguments like 'for us, it is conquer or die.'

You can see some highlights(>!) of a recent speech here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o6-bi3jlxk

I did not decide he was a nazi by making some theoretical extrapolation using Marxist calculus or somesuch. He's saying in plain English (and occasionally German) that he wants to engage in a race-based war of conquest in which the stakes are life and death.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#915

Post by anigbrowl »

severine wrote: post #403
anigbrowl wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because people are already deluged with reminders on how to participate in the political process, and also because it's apparent that the political process is in fact badly broken and corrupted, and is not so inherently self-correcting that it inhibits bad actors. Allow me to suggest that you read and internalize this essay, because it is one of the few accurate summaries of out political reality that I've encountere…

Have you read this? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201...

Not until now, but I happen to be knowledgeable enough about immigration law that it's no big surprise to me. My primary worry is that because the executive branch does have extremely broad discretion over immigration enforcement and the scope of judicial review is somewhat limited, by law, the administration will be able to do enough damage on its own initiative that by the time disputes work their way through the courts the issue will be moot, as court proceedings are overtaken by facts.

Put another way, it's real hard to bring someone to justice for arson when you're inside the burning building. It might happen later, but in the short term that does little to remediate the risk to your life and property.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#916

Post by Malician »

ebfd wrote: post #771
nerfhammer wrote: post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a couple coworkers from Iran. Would you be willing to look them in the face and explain to them how they're banned re-entry into the country?

Sure. "Muslim immigrants as a group consume more in societal resources than they contribute in taxes or skilled labor."

How do you expect others around you to treat you when they see you treating refugees in this manner?

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#917

Post by WildUtah »

anigbrowl wrote: post #383
leesalminen wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American ... There c…

That's why I favor outlawing things like St Patrick's day parades - do these people want to be Irish or American?

Pretty sure that at the St. Patrick's parade, they just want to get drunk on green beer.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#918

Post by anarazel »

baytrailcat wrote: post #508
myblake wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How effective is calling local congress members if you live in an area with a strong progressive majority such as the Bay Area. Not that we shouldn't voice our option to our represented officials but I suspect in some ways it's redundant whereas things like raising money for national organizations may be more impactful.

I disagree that this will not be helpful. The old-guard of Democratic Party hails from these hyper liberal areas (Fienstein, Schumer, Pelosi), and based on what we have seen so far, they aren't even showing a slightest hint of resistance to Trump. See the senate democrat's response to Trump nominees for example. Put enough pressure on them, they will at least form a semblance of resistance which can inspire and have…

> The old-guard of Democratic Party hails from these hyper liberal areas (Fienstein, Schumer, Pelosi), and based on what we have seen so far, they aren't even showing a slightest hint of resistance to Trump.

What exactly do you want them to do (serious, not provocative question)? All three have spoken up (in varying volume) about the nastier executive orders / memoranda / proclamations, all three argued against several of the more controversial senate approved cabinet posts.

Nearly all the senate confirmable posts can't be filibustered under the current rules. I'd even call it surprising how many of them haven't yet made it out of the respective committees due to the republican majorities. All that's holding them back seems to be those arcane "collegiality" rules that the senate has, and the reticence of some republican MoC.

Except for filibusterable stuff, the democrats are largely powerless for the moment.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not particularly happy with how Democratic "leadership" is working, but it's far from clear to me what should be done.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#919

Post by infinite8s »

thedevil wrote: post #412
disantlor wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why are we giving so much benefit of the doubt to trump and trumps supporters not only is this move ridiculous but it was executed with no foresight. now border agents are forced to make ad hoc decisions because it went into effect immediately. trump supporters cheering and claiming its just temporary, to give us time to "figure out whats going on" are deluding themselves. they rush through a ridiculous, anti-america…

Well, we definitely should not pander to them. I actually think most people (Trump supporters, you, me, everyone) vote mostly based on identity (liberal/conservative, religion, race, open-minded, well-mannered, etc). I think Trump supporters mostly voted for the party that they most identified with, the guy they thought was on their side. And I think you did the same. (I see myself as unaligned and open-minded, thus…

Do you think its possible to change their minds?

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#920

Post by [deleted] »

thedevil wrote: post #412
disantlor wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why are we giving so much benefit of the doubt to trump and trumps supporters not only is this move ridiculous but it was executed with no foresight. now border agents are forced to make ad hoc decisions because it went into effect immediately. trump supporters cheering and claiming its just temporary, to give us time to "figure out whats going on" are deluding themselves. they rush through a ridiculous, anti-america…

Well, we definitely should not pander to them. I actually think most people (Trump supporters, you, me, everyone) vote mostly based on identity (liberal/conservative, religion, race, open-minded, well-mannered, etc). I think Trump supporters mostly voted for the party that they most identified with, the guy they thought was on their side. And I think you did the same. (I see myself as unaligned and open-minded, thus…

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