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AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

blog.florianherrengt.com

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Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#901

Post by groundzeros2015 »

cbsmith wrote: post #775
groundzeros2015 wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they make a lot FEWER such mistakes than would people who could not pass the exams and maintain a license. I don’t know if that’s true. More schooling does not mean more trustworthy or careful doctors. And I suspect some negative trait selection. Milton Friedman wrote a PhD dissertation on the topic of medicine that I invite you to take a look at. > than if nothing were done. The alternative is not to invite people…

> I don’t know if that’s true. More schooling does not mean more trustworthy or careful doctors. And I suspect some negative trait selection. The medical boards are well aware of this, which is why the standards are far more than just about having more schooling. I am familiar with Friendman's dissertation, and while the economic claims it makes are solid, it isn't a take down about the medical impact of the boards.…

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Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#902

Post by bdangubic »

WalterBright wrote: post #538
bdangubic wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Such test filter out the obvious frauds. if you need garbage like leetcode to filter out "obvious frauds" you got a whole lot of problems in your company/team/...

A colleague of mine came to me for advice. He wanted one of those high dollar jobs at a well-known MegaCorp. He knew a leetcode test was used by them. I suggested that his top priority was to study the leetcode books for the next 3 weeks. I told him those three weeks would be the best ROI he'd ever make. He did so. He aced the test. He got the job with a huge offer. He agreed that the ROI was out of the park! P.S. I'…

We pull in everyone from the Team who is available at interview time into a room with a big a$$ whiteboard and we talked to the candidate. We work through the problem, either current one we are working on or recent one that we completed or we have few "golden ones" we like to have a chat about. Afterwards the Team decides whether or not they want to continue solving problems with this candidate or not.

Exactly what we do on day-to-day basis is what we do when we are trying to grow the team. I would guess that 85% of my team would fail leetcode-style screening right now (which is good cause it is garbage)

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#903

Post by trakkstar »

This piece is so god damn spot on. I have recently been raising every single one of these exact issues in our team. AI prerequisites good working practices and ways of working more than ever before. And people need to own their contributions, no matter how they produced them.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#904

Post by SamuelAdams »

Valakas_ wrote: post #778
eshack94 wrote: post #230

This blog post illustrates the importance of NEVER outsourcing your critical thinking or outsourcing decision-making to an LLM. And to never take shortcuts with learning. Learning is hard, but learning things properly allows you to understand what is happening and allows you to ask the right questions about whether the changes an agent wants to make are the changes that will best serve the goals of the project (witho…

"This blog post illustrates the importance of NEVER outsourcing your critical thinking or outsourcing decision-making to an LLM." This is a sentence that if written just 5 years ago would result in you being seen as crazy. "LLM capable of any sort of critical thinking? Haha. Not in 50 years." It never ceases to amaze me how people are stuck in the here in the now and just accept the new reality as if it had always be…

It reminds me of the part in the film `I, Robot (2004)`. The protagonist, Detective Spooner, is driving down a freeway. Driving has been automated at this point in the future, however drivers can manually drive if they elect to do so. And the driver's passenger (the robot shrink) was utterly shocked that Detective Spooner engaged manual driving.

Will we eventually be so accustomed to LLM's that we will be similarly shocked when someone elects to not use them?

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#906

Post by abnercoimbre »

weatherlite wrote: post #835
abnercoimbre wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't believe I'm correcting you on HN, but MILFs and DILFs are a thing. (Granted you'll need the appropriate genes and gym fitness.)

> gym fitness Not necessarily, there's a growing and somewhat untapped market for BBWs

Huh, I stand corrected too!

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#907

Post by Alephinitesimal »

florianherrengt wrote: post #404
jplusequalt wrote: post #246

This blog conflates productivity with expertise. Are LLMs rewarding experienced developers with tons of productivity gains? Yes. Are LLMs actively degrading their expertise of understanding code? Also yes. This article has made the implicit assumption that the top quartile of engineers are immune from skill decline. They're not. If you're an engineer who increasingly outsources the planning, writing, and analysis of…

I don’t think I’m assuming experienced engineers are immune from this at all. In fact, I think the opposite. I’ve seen senior engineers adopt AI in a way that made them noticeably worse. If you outsource the reasoning and accept plans you don’t understand then your previous experience isn’t going to save you. Nothing will. The skill atrophy from outsourcing too much thinking is a real risk. I just don’t think that’s…

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Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#908

Post by sadlyuramoron »

breezybottom wrote: post #871
roenxi wrote: post #819

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also buy from companies that hire licensed software engineers if you want to? The main thing that would stop people patronising licensed individuals is if there was no obvious skill gap between a licensed and unlicensed practitioner that justifies the price gap. People don't need a government body to tell them to check for credentials. If people care they can ask (I had to give a copy of my degree certificate…

That's the absurd libertarian logic. I'm supposed to be able to assess the credibility of whatever credentials I'm shown? Despite having no expertise in the field?

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Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#909

Post by sadlyuramoron »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #833
eru wrote: post #735

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hint: It puts downward pressure on price. Same reason they are trying again with AI. You say it like it's a bad thing. About occupational licensing for software: it's also a uniquely global market, so I'm not sure how any one economy moving ahead with occupational licensing would work, unless they also restricted what software you can import or use in the cloud.

> About occupational licensing for software: it's also a uniquely global market, so I'm not sure how any one economy moving ahead with occupational licensing would work, unless they also restricted what software you can import or use in the cloud. Relatively easily, tbh. Just create a regulation that requires either the country's standards or equivalent ones to be used in the creation of any software sold to people/b…

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Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#910

Post by jplusequalt »

florianherrengt wrote: post #404
jplusequalt wrote: post #246

This blog conflates productivity with expertise. Are LLMs rewarding experienced developers with tons of productivity gains? Yes. Are LLMs actively degrading their expertise of understanding code? Also yes. This article has made the implicit assumption that the top quartile of engineers are immune from skill decline. They're not. If you're an engineer who increasingly outsources the planning, writing, and analysis of…

I don’t think I’m assuming experienced engineers are immune from this at all. In fact, I think the opposite. I’ve seen senior engineers adopt AI in a way that made them noticeably worse. If you outsource the reasoning and accept plans you don’t understand then your previous experience isn’t going to save you. Nothing will. The skill atrophy from outsourcing too much thinking is a real risk. I just don’t think that’s…

>What matters is whether you understand the change being made. If you don’t, then you’re not adding much value, because the LLM can do that part better and faster than you anyway.

My point is that your ability to understand what a change is doing is tied to your ability to write and analyze code in the first place.

If you no longer engage with either of those (also your ability to review requires you still understand how to write effective code), then AI will be removing you too.

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