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Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

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Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#901
post #900
post #896

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll defer to the research[0], but I believe mathematical attainment is correlated primarily with IQ and mostly only correlated with maths anxiety, wealth, etc. to the extent that those things are proxies for IQ. It's cruel to tell students that everyone can learn maths. Neither "everyone" nor "maths" is strictly true, you know it's not true, and most of the students also know it's not true. If you just told them "ev…

I am fine with the research results, it's important to note that it does not control for pedagogical variance. [Edit: I'd like refer to the last 2 paragraphs on the Discussion section to point out other issues in the paper the author acknowledges] One speculation I'd be fine to make would be that high IQ could be associated with survival bias, e.g. someone who is already quite adept at identifying patterns might be a…

>it does not control for pedagogical variance

This it total gibberish. No one cares about this sort of academic correction for observed outcomes. "Hmm some kids are continuously scoring better on math exams. Our pedagogy must be wrong! We must teach better." In reality math teachers who are good are extremely rare because people who are good at math tend to not be teachers.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#902
post #802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good education, where one is imbued with motivation to learn and develop knowledge. That's not evenly distributed. Anybody can learn math.

>Anybody can learn math. I'm actually surprised that sentiments like this still exist. We work in technology, we've had enough contact with enough people to know that there is a difference between motivation to learn a hard technical field and the aptitude to actually do that field. "Anybody can learn basic addition" is mostly true. "Anybody can learn linear algebra" is not.

Well, I don't believe that's a fair conclusion based just on the fact we observe most people are "innumerate" and "hate maths".

Most people also never had the fortune of having someone describe why resolving quadratic equations is meaningful or how it developed.

An example of a somewhat dense but very approachable topic with good motivation is this book: https://web.osu.cz/~Zusmanovich/teach/books/visual-group-the...

You could say that not every adult, 2 deviations from the IQ median for the sake of rigor (we lose 2.5% of the population under), capable of reading might be able to follow it, and I would accept the argument. At the same time almost every adult was also indoctrinated in such a way they "hate maths", even though their only experience is dealing with numbers, operations and memorizing formulas that might eventually be useful.

I'm not sure this translates well, but the best allegory I could make to illustrate my point is "the fish does not think about the water".

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#903
post #900

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am fine with the research results, it's important to note that it does not control for pedagogical variance. [Edit: I'd like refer to the last 2 paragraphs on the Discussion section to point out other issues in the paper the author acknowledges] One speculation I'd be fine to make would be that high IQ could be associated with survival bias, e.g. someone who is already quite adept at identifying patterns might be a…

>it does not control for pedagogical variance This it total gibberish. No one cares about this sort of academic correction for observed outcomes. "Hmm some kids are continuously scoring better on math exams. Our pedagogy must be wrong! We must teach better." In reality math teachers who are good are extremely rare because people who are good at math tend to not be teachers.

I mean, we have good evidence that "New Math" pedagogical approach in the 70s was very ineffective compared to traditional learning by example, memorizing multiplication tables at younger ages. Would you say that is "gibberish" as well?

> In reality math teachers who are good are extremely rare because people who are good at math tend to not be teachers.

It's hard to take your argument seriously when your own sentence corroborates what I'm trying to convey.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#904
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the answer to this is that schooling/care for people with disabilities that make it impossible for them to succeed in normal school should be a totally different budget with different success criteria than the budget for normal school. There are two different and contradictory goals here- the current dynamic where every gain for one is a loss for the other creates a ton of bad outcomes across the board.

"people with disabilities that make it impossible for them to succeed in normal school" is not a clearly divisible population from the regular student population though. Many (but not all) districts deal with disabilities via IEPs, or Individual Education Plans. They are tailored to particular students, and can be fairly common. They make things less of a clear binary than 2 separate school systems would really need.…

Giving accomodations during a test kind of invalidates the test as a measurement of relative ability, or aptitude for further studies, so perhaps the solution is to stop doing that

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#905

I can’t help comparing this to the system I grew up in (Italy), which is vastly different and it seemingly produces very good graduates. University was free and there was no test for enrolling in STEM degrees, and you could retry exams every semester as much as you wanted to. But goddamit exams were HARD and if you weren’t prepared enough you would keep failing until you gave up. We weren’t entitled because we weren’…

I studied engineering in Sweden. One of our courses had an 80% failure rate. A world of difference from Harvard where the average grade is A.

[deleted]

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#906

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The system is working as designed. If they don’t want to provide remedial then they need some pre-admission test to weed them out. The students can try again later after maturing more or taking community college classes.

If only there was a national standardized test that assessed whether students are prepared for college or not. Oh, wait

It’s inadequate. You can get in with a satisfactory score and still need help

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#908

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've done a nice job articulating why people support equity programs. The sticking point is that there is a big difference between theory and practice. We end up with elimination of 8th grade algebra in SF, abandoning graduation requirements in Oregon, the Chicago teachers union tweeting that "testing is white supremacy", promoting kids before they have achieved grade level performance, political indoctrination in…

I will of course agree that equity programs are completely susceptible to flawed design and implementations, like everything else. What makes it difficult to have productive conversations, is that it's very difficult to untangle who has a problem with a given program, versus with the concept of equity (as a theory to make things fair), versus with the fundamental goal of making things more fair, since not everyone ev…

I am not convinced that separating students by ability harms anybody's academic performance. I think it's a false premise that a parent who wants their kid in advanced classes (or advanced schools) is behaving "antisocially."

When there is too great a difference in ability in a single classroom, teachers struggle to serve everyone's needs. I don't believe anyone is well-served by this.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#909

Earlier quoted context omitted.

tl;dr: remedial classes are good and some schools are good at them. Admissions question aside, it's not a bad idea to get good at them. I attended community college in my hometown, as well as a university elsewhere, and eventually completed my undergraduate education. While I attended the community college, which openly advertises that it has no admissions requirements at all, I also worked there as a tutor in math.…

To be clear, I never endorsed any of these routes. They're all bandaids that try to make up for the intentional defunding and prisonification of our public school system. We can't solve the intentional sabotage of our educational system by keeping kids in it for longer via remedial classes, which are supposed to be focused on kids who have personal barriers to learning, not systemically-imposed ones.

Since I wrote that post I've learned a little more about other solutions being experimented with elsewhere, and I think offering remedial support is important but I have a clearer picture of the problems with traditional remedial course progressions and where the attrition actually happens (it turns out it's in between the remedial courses, not in the courses themselves). I think there are some ways forward that somewhat solve that attrition issue without lowering the bar.

And I agree that the correct fix to bad primary and secondary school learning outcomes has to be focused on the school and home environments of students in primary and secondary school. I also think the current structure of higher education (a service you buy, at great cost, typically with non-dischargeable debt) makes detours (like remedial course sequences or just failing to place into a course for a given semester) and failed experiments (getting admitted to a school or program you're just not ready for) extremely costly and high-stakes for students.

Issues crop up here in university classrooms and university admissions offices, but it's obvious that the problem's root is nowhere near there.

I kinda wanna contest one thing, though: the function of college degrees in the job market is a credential that signals, among other things, a competence floor. "Keeping" people (virtually always adults, by the time the enter university) longer should be minimized where it doesn't produce more competence (something that cannot be measured by completion rates). But if efforts to shorten that path achieve that goal by diluting the accuracy of the credential as a competency signal, downstream consumers of that signal will just stop relying on it. That's what is happening here with universities bringing back the use of the SAT in the face of the competency signaling failure of high school diplomas, and it can also happen with community college transfer credits, associate's degrees, or bachelor's degrees. And when the problem hits the job market, employers are likely to turn even more to that diffuse set of signals (personal networks, clubs, vibes that draw on stereotypes, legacy networks, credentials that take even more schooling) that are actually worse in equity terms because they are more informal, more path-dependent, and harder to crack for skilled and talented people of disadvantaged backgrounds.

It's true that sometimes employers or universities or others are looking for largely arbitrary filters, because they have more qualified candidates available than they actually can deal with, in which case the function of a college degree or a high school may no longer be primarily about signaling a competency floor. I think that case is even worse, though. Consider the case of universities: instead of buying test prep or subject area tutoring, high SES families end up seeking to reproduce their advantage through favors, legacy networks, interview coaching, application coaching, etc.

Degrading the competency signals of educational credentials creates a cascading fraudulent promotion failure. Degrading or eliminating the aptitude signals of quantitative entrance tests ends up burdening the people who are supposed to be helped with not just failure and detours but massive debt. You can't solve scarcity problems by removing information.

Thanks for your engagement and sorry for writing too much. :)

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#910

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will of course agree that equity programs are completely susceptible to flawed design and implementations, like everything else. What makes it difficult to have productive conversations, is that it's very difficult to untangle who has a problem with a given program, versus with the concept of equity (as a theory to make things fair), versus with the fundamental goal of making things more fair, since not everyone ev…

I am not convinced that separating students by ability harms anybody's academic performance. I think it's a false premise that a parent who wants their kid in advanced classes (or advanced schools) is behaving "antisocially." When there is too great a difference in ability in a single classroom, teachers struggle to serve everyone's needs. I don't believe anyone is well-served by this.

>I am not convinced that separating students by ability harms anybody's academic performance.

You're not convinced that it can do that, that it typically does as currently implemented, or that it always will do that?

Presumably you agree that as long as a student is capable of keeping up with the material, they'll do better (in the long run if they get placed in) in a higher level class. Otherwise there would be no benefit in separating the students in the first place! I assume you also agree that we don't have any perfect tools for assessing a kid's potential. Thus, when separating kids, we will necessarily get some wrong, to their detriment. So, I hope, you're willing to concede that this could harm their academic performance.

Now, the extent to which that happens under any given paradigm is very much up for debate. But hopefully this illustrates how separating students by "ability" could harm "anyone's" academic performance.

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