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Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

nytimes.com

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Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#901

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #881
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #847

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world's best female ultradistance runners, rock climbers (particuarly sport and bouldering, but lead also), ultradistance swimmers, are all on a par with their male counterparts and occasionally better. Since I personally don't have any interest in team sports of any type, I have nothing to say about your observations, though I will continue to wear my "I'm here for the women's race" t-shirt whenever I can.

> I have nothing to say about your observations, though I will continue to wear my "I'm here for the women's race" t-shirt whenever I can. Yet you would hapilly abolish them and think the world a better place? Im genuinely confused. Would you wear a "division 2" or "slow bracket" shirt with similar gusto?

I said that I would only abolish them if we could get to the endpoint overnight. Which clearly is impossible, ergo, I would not happily abolish them at all.

I'd happily wear a "I'm here for the D2a race" shirt in such a system.

Most people's paths as sports participants (not spectators) is that they enter a tiered system and remain there. Only a tiny percentage of people rise through that system to become truly national or internationally competitive.

One of the central problems here is that there are conflicts between what's good for the participants and whats good for fans/spectators. They are not always in conflict, but in several important ways, they truly are. 99.99999% of people who run marathons are not Eliud Kipchoge, and are not interested in a system that is designed around his level of performance and competition. But 90%+ of the people who would pay to watch marathons have little interest in a system that isn't built around talents like his. The same is true of almost all sports - solo or team - but it doesn't show up for 80% of them because there is no market for paid viewing of them. Or rather ... there wasn't until YT became what it is today. "The Finisher", a film about Jasmin Paris, the first woman to finish the infamous Barkley Marathons, has had 1.8M views, something it would never have achieved in "legacy" media.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#902

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #890
s1artibartfast wrote: post #881

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have nothing to say about your observations, though I will continue to wear my "I'm here for the women's race" t-shirt whenever I can. Yet you would hapilly abolish them and think the world a better place? Im genuinely confused. Would you wear a "division 2" or "slow bracket" shirt with similar gusto?

Why would you name it "division 2"? If you're going to test for SRY as the way to assign participants, then you should name the divisions "SRY-pos" and "SRY-neg". At least that would be correct.

That's the exact opposite of what I'm suggesting up-thread.

Categories would be assigned based on performance criteria for the sport in question. One simplistic approach, loosely modelled on how road cycling works, would be to have categories based on race performances - you enter an "open" category, and after N finishes above a certain level, you are required to move up to "division 4". After N finishes above a certain level in div4, you are required to move up to "division 3". And so on. The idea is that you're racing against your performance peers, regardless of their gender (or age).

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#903

Post by ahhhhnoooo »

remarkEon wrote: post #861
Retric wrote: post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just that, start talking hundreds of millions of births and you get clerical error. Which could then become rather complicated if there are laws saying the sex assigned at birth has significant lifelong legal consequences.

Clerical errors get corrected. Because they are errors.

My sweet summer child.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#904

Post by ahhhhnoooo »

ragall wrote: post #848
ahhhhnoooo wrote: post #846

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "tacking social expectations on top" is the part that is gender! There's no biological foundation for wearing a sari, hijab, miniskirt, etc. Those are social expectations for women, or part of the role women fill in society. It's a wholly different concept than biological sex. My penis does not make it impossible to wear eyeliner. But society has a social expectation that I do not. It's not a sex characteristic,…

> It's not a sex characteristic, it's a gender characteristic. They're one and the same. > But denying the idea that humans have both characteristics derived from biology (sex) and from societal expectations (gender) is simply objectively incorrect. I don't deny the existence of social expectations (you severely misread what I wrote), but those expectations were deriving from the recognition of the objective truth of…

So, skirt wearing has a biological component?

We didn't just make it all up as a society?

Cause I'm pretty sure it's a social construct.

If it is a social construct, then people can elect not to accept that construct....

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#905

Post by simondotau »

erxam wrote: post #464
simondotau wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But surely puberty, not just maturity, is necessary to fully understand the sexual experience and whether your feelings about yourself crystalise differently in the presence of sexual drive. Not to mention, the idea of delaying puberty seems like an invitation for unrelated and/or unforeseen downstream consequences on biological health.

It is not. Precocious sexual drive is possibly amongst the worst things there is for gaining sexual maturity. Also known as 'thinking with your dick'. CSA aside, you can do a ton of damage to your life by just going along with your sexual drive. I am a virgin at 27 years old. What am I missing about the sexual experience? Is it somehow locked out to me? Or… can I access it intellectually, and reason about it with its…

> What am I missing

Sexual identity is an important component of gender identity. Encouraging people to make conclusions about their gender identity before they understand their sexual identity seems risky to me, especially when a child is being asked to make decisions with potentially life-altering medical consequences.

To be clear, a person does not need to have had sex to understand their sexual identity. They need to know what they find attractive and how their sexual identity relates to their own body. Even if someone feels like the opposite gender, that does not necessarily mean their sexual identity will automatically align with that.

It may be true that the transgender experience is something more fundamental to the self than “mere” sex. But when the choice is between one set of trade-offs and another, such as intervention versus non-intervention, I would contend that understanding one’s sexual identity is a critical piece of information.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#906

Post by reillyse »

mech998877 wrote: post #324
pavel_lishin wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please present some.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10641525/ The moralizing parts of the conclusion of this article rejects it's own evidence. There are multiple studies cited by the article where the population average of the trans women group statistically significantly exceeds that of the cis women group. The article concludes: "The exclusion of trans individuals also insults the skill and athleticism of both cis and trans…

But we really don’t have to “draw the line” anywhere, it’s not an issue. It’s a nothing burger. Any benefits such as they might be fall well within the standard deviation of females and so the argument that’s it’s unsafe or unfair doesn’t fly, nobody talks about excluding large or tall girls from girls sports. Besides, as they say in the article once the girls have gone through gender affirming therapy and their hormones have reached normal levels nearly all of the benefits have disappeared.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#907

Post by ragall »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #889
ragall wrote: post #883

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things that are dependent on each other are, essentially, the same thing. People can try to redefine whatever they please as long as the rest of society can point out the silliness of it.

So you dont think actions and signals can mean different things to different people? A dress or lipstick might mean there is also a vagina to one person, but not another person. This is a testable prediction. One where the correct answer depends on what people are actually doing. If you think a dress means vaginas and people stop doing that, you simply become wrong.

Now that's just silly.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#908

Post by loeg »

crote wrote: post #754
cmiles8 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re getting into a separate issue of blocking puberty in children, which may would consider abuse. Separate from that there are still measurable differences between sexes that you can’t just magically change with a pill or surgery.

> Separate from that there are still measurable differences between sexes Ever seen pre-puberty kids play against each other? The girls and boys perform about the same.

Boys are stronger than girls even pre-puberty (~10%).

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/asset/bd2689e4-7094-4e0b...

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ejsc.12268

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#909

Post by loeg »

dbacar wrote: post #421
nradov wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I guess that's an option for youth sports in the prepubescent age groups. As a practical matter most youth sports leagues and schools aren't going to hassle with sex screening tests for little kids. But once puberty hits everything changes. My teenage daughter played travel club volleyball on a pretty good team, and during practice they would occasionally run drills with the boys team. Even at that age the diff…

males competing against males are also at risk by taking a ball to the head :). I think male female trans etc . can compete if analysed by sports branch basis. Male x female in contact sports like karate boxing taekwondo is not fair. However i think the difference is negligible in shooting, archerty, curling etc.

Men play volleyball with a higher net to ameliorate this problem.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#910

Post by throwawayk7h »

jojobas wrote: post #667
rideontime wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's the headline that's inaccurate. It should read "bars women with the SRY gene" rather than "transgender."

The former is included in the latter, so while inaccurate it's still correct.

Just as cis women can have the SRY gene, so too can trans women not have it.
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