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The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

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Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#901
Not really. If you take their rhetoric at face value ("Think of the children") then sure, it undermines everyone's data protection.

I will go as far as to assume that no one on HN believes this is done for the children. It's been done to censor people and ID the majority of normies online. And when you think of this, the undermining of everyone's data protection is note an undesired side effect, it's the goal.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#902

I work at a European identity wallet system that uses a zero knowledge proof age identification system. It derives an age attribute such as "over 18" from a passport or ID, without disclosing any other information such as the date of birth. As long as you trust the government that gave out the ID, you can trust the attribute, and anonymously verify somebodies age. I think there are many pros and cons to be said about…

If the age verification is going to mandate government issued ID, the government issuer can be the Trust Anchor issuing a Digitally Signed Credential for the zero knowledge proof - using any available open source zero-knowledge process: 1) zkcreds-rs (zk-creds) [1] 2) zkLogin (Sui Foundation) [2] 3) TLSNotary [3] 4) DECO (Chainlink/Cornell) [4] 5) Anon-Aadhaar [5] [1] https://github.com/rozbb/zkcreds-rs [2] https://g…

Apologies that I'm latching onto your post for visibility, but for the sake of discussion - the European Identity Digital Wallet project specification and standardisation process is in the open and lives on github (yeah, the irony isn't lost on me :) ):

https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet

https://eudi.dev/latest/

Everything's very much WIP, but it aims to provide a detailed Archictecture and Reference Framework/Technical Specifications and a reference implementation as a guideline for national implementations:

https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/eudi-doc-archi...

https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/eudi-wallet-re...

https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/eudi-doc-stand...

You'll find several (still evolving) Technical Specifications regarding ZKPs (including a discussion area) in the latter.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#903

I work at a European identity wallet system that uses a zero knowledge proof age identification system. It derives an age attribute such as "over 18" from a passport or ID, without disclosing any other information such as the date of birth. As long as you trust the government that gave out the ID, you can trust the attribute, and anonymously verify somebodies age. I think there are many pros and cons to be said about…

I feel like you're glossing over a lot of uncomfortable but important implementation details here. None of this works without effectively banning personal computing and tying the whole system to secure attestation (which in practice means non-jailbroken apple & android devices). No thanks.

Can we go back to defaulting to parenting instead of nanny-states? Maybe make "age sensitive" websites include this fact into a header (or whatever) so that parents can decide who in their household can access which content. Instead of having some overreaching corpo-government implementing draconian "verification" systems.

If I want to live under the thumb of a strongly verified "benevolent" dictatorship, I'll move to China. No need to create a second China at home.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#904

I work at a European identity wallet system that uses a zero knowledge proof age identification system. It derives an age attribute such as "over 18" from a passport or ID, without disclosing any other information such as the date of birth. As long as you trust the government that gave out the ID, you can trust the attribute, and anonymously verify somebodies age. I think there are many pros and cons to be said about…

In Amsterdam 1850 the municipality kept track of people's names, address, age, gender and religion (bevolkingsregister). It meant nothing at this time, but 90 years later the Nazi used these lists to murder jewish people going house by house. Thanks for the partisans setting this archive ablaze, life were saved. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, you tell me, I just want to point at this random timeline.

When Trump came into power a second time, and the ICE-nazification became apparent, I reached out to my government and asked them what they were doing to make it harder for "Trumpism" to happen here. No reply. Just crickets.

Hoovering up less data would be a really fucking good start. There's something about babies and bathwater, but by god this has proven to be very dangerous bathwater time and time again.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#906

I work at a European identity wallet system that uses a zero knowledge proof age identification system. It derives an age attribute such as "over 18" from a passport or ID, without disclosing any other information such as the date of birth. As long as you trust the government that gave out the ID, you can trust the attribute, and anonymously verify somebodies age. I think there are many pros and cons to be said about…

First let me clearly state that I appreciate the amount of thought you guys are putting into creating better systems that have high privacy guarantees. I concede to you, that in some situations, your system leads to better privacy.

But I don't look at this on a purely technological level. These identity-based systems are instruments of control. Right now everything is still in flux with how these tools will be used and how accessible they are to the general population and the many minorities therein. I simply don't trust our politicians to do the right thing short-term and long-term. The establishment of the GDPR has been a major victory for better privacy legislation and now the Commission wants to hollow it out. The Commission also wants chat control to increase the amount of mass surveillance in Europe.

There is a potential future, where we all win. But I am highly skeptical, that in the current political climate, we will end up there.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#907

I work at a European identity wallet system that uses a zero knowledge proof age identification system. It derives an age attribute such as "over 18" from a passport or ID, without disclosing any other information such as the date of birth. As long as you trust the government that gave out the ID, you can trust the attribute, and anonymously verify somebodies age. I think there are many pros and cons to be said about…

As soon as age-gated access depends on a government-issued credential, you're implicitly tying participation to state identity infrastructure

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#908

Age verification is very hard, because parents will give their children their unlocked account, and children will steal their parents' unlocked account. If that's criminalized (like alcohol), it will happen too often to prosecute (much more frequently than alcohol, which is rarely prosecuted anyways). I don't see a solution that isn't a fundamental culture shift. If there's a fundamental culture shift, there's an eas…

Similar to alcohol, the system doesn't prevent all underage access

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#909

I work at a European identity wallet system that uses a zero knowledge proof age identification system. It derives an age attribute such as "over 18" from a passport or ID, without disclosing any other information such as the date of birth. As long as you trust the government that gave out the ID, you can trust the attribute, and anonymously verify somebodies age. I think there are many pros and cons to be said about…

No one would be foolish enough to trust their government nor the EU. You should be ashamed of working for such "people". Thanks for helping implementing a surveillance state.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#910

zero knowledge cryptography solves this

Only in theory, and only if you blindly trust a third party. The implementations in practice are still massive privacy violations.

what third party do you need? The program can be opensource. The verification can be done onchain
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