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X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

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Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#901

Post by ceejayoz »

tw85 wrote: post #831
mnewme wrote: post #519

Good one. No platform ever should allow CSAM content. And the fact that they didn’t even care and haven’t want to spend money for implementing guardrails or moderation is deeply concerning. This has imho nothing to do with model censorship, but everything with allowing that kind of content on a platform

It seems people have a rather short memory when it comes to twitter. When it was still run by Jack Dorsey, CP was abundant on twitter and there was little effort to tamp down on it. After Musk bought the platform, he and Dorsey had a public argument in which Dorsey denied the scale of the problem or that old twitter was aware of it and had shown indifference. But Musk actually did take tangible steps to clean it up a…

> But Musk actually did take tangible steps to clean it up and many accounts were banned.

Mmkay.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_under_Elon_Musk#Child_...

"As of June 2023, an investigation by the Stanford Internet Observatory at Stanford University reported "a lapse in basic enforcement" against child porn by Twitter within "recent months". The number of staff on Twitter's trust and safety teams were reduced, for example, leaving one full-time staffer to handle all child sexual abuse material in the Asia-Pacific region in November 2022."

"In 2024, the company unsuccessfully attempted to avoid the imposition of fines in Australia regarding the government's inquiries about child safety enforcement; X Corp reportedly said they had no obligation to respond to the inquiries since they were addressed to "Twitter Inc", which X Corp argued had "ceased to exist"."

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#902

Post by AtlasBarfed »

almosthere wrote: post #870
utopiah wrote: post #457

To people claiming a physical raid is pointless from the point of gathering data : - you are thinking about a company doing good things the right way. You are thinking about a company abiding by the law, storing data on its own server, having good practices, etc. The moment a company starts to do dubious stuff then good practices start to go out the window. People write email with cryptic analogies, people start dele…

At some point in the near future I see a day where our work laptops are nothing more than a full screen streaming video to a different computer that is housed in a country that has no data extradition treaties and is business friendly. Because that country and the businesses that support that are going to get RICH from such a service.

Sealand,!!!!!!

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#903

Post by graemep »

mnewme wrote: post #698
ReptileMan wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But that doesn’t remove responsibility from tool providers when harm is predictable, scalable, and preventable by design. Platforms moderating illegal content is exactly what we are arguing about, so you can't use it as an argument. The rest cases you list are harms to the people using the tools/products. It is not harms that people using the tools inflict on third parties. We are literally arguing about 3d printer…

That is not the argument. No one is arguing about banning open source LLMs that could potentially create problematic content on huggingface, but X provides not only an AI model, but a platform and distribution as well, so that is inherently different

> No one is arguing about banning open source LLMs that could potentially create problematic content on huggingface,

If LLMs should have guardrails, why should open source ones be exempt? What about people hosting models on hugging face? WHat if you use a model both distributed by and hosted by hugging face.

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#904

Post by SoftTalker »

utopiah wrote: post #457

To people claiming a physical raid is pointless from the point of gathering data : - you are thinking about a company doing good things the right way. You are thinking about a company abiding by the law, storing data on its own server, having good practices, etc. The moment a company starts to do dubious stuff then good practices start to go out the window. People write email with cryptic analogies, people start dele…

They don't just take paper when they raid offices. They take the computers too. I've never worked anywhere where desktop machines are encrypted as a matter of routine. Laptops yes (but only recently). Servers maybe, depending on what they do.

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#905

Post by flumpcakes »

yibg wrote: post #869
mnewme wrote: post #519

Good one. No platform ever should allow CSAM content. And the fact that they didn’t even care and haven’t want to spend money for implementing guardrails or moderation is deeply concerning. This has imho nothing to do with model censorship, but everything with allowing that kind of content on a platform

My natural reaction here is like I think most others; that yes Grok / X bad, shouldn't be able to generate CSAM content / deepfakes. But I am having trouble justifying in an consistent manner why Grok / X should be liable here instead of the user. I've seen a few arguments here that mostly comes down to: 1. It's Grok the LLM generating the content, not the user. 2. The distribution. That this isn't just on the user's…

> For 1. it seems to breakdown if we look more broadly at how LLMs are used. e.g. as a coding agent. We're basically starting to treat LLMs as a higher level framework now. We don't hold vendors of programming languages or frameworks responsible if someone uses them to create CSAM. Yes LLM generated the content, but the user still provided the instructions to do so.

LLMs are completely different to programming languages or even Photoshop.

You can't type a sentence and within 10 seconds get images of CSAM with Photoshop. LLMs are also built on trained material, unlike the traditional tools in Photoshop. There have been plenty CSAM found in the training data sets, but shock-horror apparently not enough information to know "where it came from". There's a non-zero chance that this CSAM Grok is vomiting out is based on "real" CSAM of people being abused.

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#906

Post by morkalork »

almosthere wrote: post #895
neoromantique wrote: post #882

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some places that day is today, and has been for a while.

I agree but so far at all places I have ever worked, I have access to the local hardware, disk, etc... if that's an actuality it's extremely rare.

I've definitely witnessed some pretty big companies that have got all their employees, including developers, set up on Citrix. In those cases, the "foreign friendly legal environment getting rich off of it" was the United States

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#907

Post by Levitz »

fyredge wrote: post #860
tick_tock_tick wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No need to be coy the raid exists because it's a way to punish the company without proving anything. They have zero intention of getting even the slightest bit of valuable data related to Grok from this.

Unlike the current American administration who condones raids on homes without warrants and justifies violence with lies, this France raid follows something called rule of law. So no, don't be coy and pretend that all governments are like American institutions.

>Unlike the current American administration who condones raids on homes without warrants and justifies violence with lies, this France raid follows something called rule of law.

Iffy on that front, actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest_and_indictment_of_Pavel...

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#908

Post by dragonwriter »

almosthere wrote: post #870
utopiah wrote: post #457

To people claiming a physical raid is pointless from the point of gathering data : - you are thinking about a company doing good things the right way. You are thinking about a company abiding by the law, storing data on its own server, having good practices, etc. The moment a company starts to do dubious stuff then good practices start to go out the window. People write email with cryptic analogies, people start dele…

At some point in the near future I see a day where our work laptops are nothing more than a full screen streaming video to a different computer that is housed in a country that has no data extradition treaties and is business friendly. Because that country and the businesses that support that are going to get RICH from such a service.

> At some point in the near future I see a day where our work laptops are nothing more than a full screen streaming video to a different computer that is housed in a country that has no data extradition treaties and is business friendly.

Do you mean they will be pure worker surveillance systems, or did you mean “from” instead of “to”?

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#909

Post by learingsci »

Rygian wrote: post #852
learingsci wrote: post #846

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Americans are just having trouble coping with the idea of a corporation being held liable for crimes.” I’m sorry but that’s absurd even amidst the cacophony of absurdity that comprises public discourse these days.

I'll bite. How was TikTok held liable for the crimes it was accused of?

American companies held liable for crimes include Bank of America ($87B in penalties), Purdue Pharma (opioid crisis), Pfizer for fraudulent drug marketing, Enron for accounting fraud. Everyone on hn should know about FTX, Theranos, I mean come on.

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#910

Post by commandlinefan »

miki123211 wrote: post #454

This vindicates the pro-AI censorship crowd I guess. It definitely makes it clear what is expected of AI companies. Your users aren't responsible for what they use your model for, you are, so you'd better make sure your model can't ever be used for anything nefarious. If you can't do that without keeping the model closed and verifying everyone's identities... well, that's good for your profits I guess.

Pretty disturbing to me how many people _on here_ are cheering for this. I thought that at least here of all places, there might be some nuanced discussion on "ok, I see why people are emotional about this topic in particular, but it's worth stepping back and putting emotions aside for a minute to see if this is actually reasonable overall..." but besides your comment, I'm not seeing much of that.
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