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Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

macrumors.com

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Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#901

Post by rchaud »

siavosh wrote: post #827
jacquesm wrote: post #807

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CEO could easily stop this.

And the board would replace them. It’s their fiduciary duty.

Boards are not some sort of unelected shadow government that exists to depose leaders if they aren't squeezing enough blood from the stone. Appointing a new CEO is time consuming and carries enormous market ramifications that could backfire on shareholders if it goes wrong, putting their own board seats at risk. Stability and peaceful transitions of power benefit everybody in this prisoner's dillema. A new CEO will be shopped around to the public years before they actually take power so there aren't any surprises when they do.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#902

Post by devmor »

CGMthrowaway wrote: post #853
devmor wrote: post #836

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Creators on Patreon are already loosely bound to the market of other creators. Not all creators are affected by this change. The app store payment cut harms only creators who have disproportionately high percentages of patrons that primarily consume their content from iPhones - a demographic that they have no control over. If they wish to increase their price to make up for this, they then are forced to risk turning…

> The app store payment cut harms only creators who have disproportionately high percentages of patrons that primarily consume their content from iPhones It cuts both ways. The app store payment disincents consuming content from iPhones (indirectly, as the iPhone-heavy creators raise their prices). Of course Apple has the greater power, but there are always tradeoffs. That is the market in action - "cutting both ways…

> It cuts both ways. The app store payment disincents consuming content from iPhones (indirectly, as the iPhone-heavy creators raise their prices).

That is not remotely a balanced comparison. An iPhone has more than the purpose of consuming content from Patreon and is unlikely to affect Apple. They are still gaining in this situation.

There is no magical fairy tale being called "the market" balancing the situation here. Just a large corporation exerting control over people through rent-seeking. The only disruption happening is Apple disrupting people being fairly paid for their work so they can take a large of chunk of it instead of being happy making a profit by skimming off the top already.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#903

Post by ndriscoll »

stavros wrote: post #891
its-summertime wrote: post #890

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Due to the web's distributed nature, "all" is impossible, but there are plenty of ranked-by-rating lists of web games out there. I don't want to be spammy so I'm only gonna link one of them that comes to mind, but there are a lot of other listings you can find at any search engine of your choice! https://www.kongregate.com/ (All is impossible for both iOS and Android also: Games that don't get updated, games that get…

My point was that the web has orders of magnitude worse discoverability than the stores, otherwise everyone would obviously just publish on the web. Saying "oh just do the thing you aren't doing" shows that one of two things is true: Either every app developer currently doesn't know the web exists, or everyone else knows something you don't.

Your point doesn't make any sense. The only reason Apple's store can have "all" the apps is that they are a monopolist and take steps to disallow anyone from selling apps through any other channel, so there cannot possibly be multiple storefronts with different selections like their is in any other context.

On Android for example, Play Store does not have "all" apps, or even most apps that I have on my phone. Because Play Store has mostly garbage. It's a surprise to no one that Steam's storefront has a different selection from Amazon or Epic or GoG in the same way that no one is surprised that Walmart and Target carry different items.

So "discovery" in your sense is basically "I ignore everything that isn't presented by this particular storefront", i.e. a complete lack of discovery.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#904

Post by stavros »

ndriscoll wrote: post #903
stavros wrote: post #891

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point was that the web has orders of magnitude worse discoverability than the stores, otherwise everyone would obviously just publish on the web. Saying "oh just do the thing you aren't doing" shows that one of two things is true: Either every app developer currently doesn't know the web exists, or everyone else knows something you don't.

Your point doesn't make any sense. The only reason Apple's store can have "all" the apps is that they are a monopolist and take steps to disallow anyone from selling apps through any other channel, so there cannot possibly be multiple storefronts with different selections like their is in any other context. On Android for example, Play Store does not have "all" apps, or even most apps that I have on my phone. Because…

If you think "the web has orders of magnitude worse discoverability than mobile app stores" makes no sense, then there's not enough common ground for us to have a productive discussion on this.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#905

Post by ingohelpinger »

vlod wrote: post #582
ingohelpinger wrote: post #471

Nostr and Zaps, problem solved.

Can you mind elaborating further how this would work? I am somewhat familiar with both of them. Are you suggesting some sort of app store or web page to send money/bitcoin?

Nostr is a decentralized social protocol where people can send btc tips, called zaps, directly to creators.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#906

Post by Matl »

browningstreet wrote: post #749
Matl wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chrome, Windows and Lenovo don't have the payment system baked in, with all the consumer protections that come with it. Chrome definitely does, at least to a degree. But you have the option to not use it, because guess what? You're supposed to own the device.

Chrome doesn't do this, Chrome has a wallet and you're still stuck talking to your credit card company. It looks like you may have edited your comment, but the issues of Apple's app store payment percentage, the open/closed nature of their appstore, and the ability to sideload apps are 3 separate issues.

I don't think I edited my comment...

> you're still stuck talking to your credit card company

AFAIK Apple still talks to it too, they just have a deeper/better experience on the platforms they own and provide a service where they can generate a virtual card for you, so you're shielded from the merchant, but not from your card issuer.

> Apple's app store payment percentage, the open/closed nature of their appstore, and the ability to sideload apps are 3 separate issues

Yes and no, because Apple wants to use the closed nature of their ecosystem to offer their solution as the only possible one, yet at the same time claim that they deserve their 30% cut because it's the best solution out there and they provide so much value.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#907

Post by vlod »

ingohelpinger wrote: post #905
vlod wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you mind elaborating further how this would work? I am somewhat familiar with both of them. Are you suggesting some sort of app store or web page to send money/bitcoin?

Nostr is a decentralized social protocol where people can send btc tips, called zaps, directly to creators.

I believe what you're saying is the benefit of Bitcoin (or other crypto) to get around gatekeepers.

I don't believe Patreon at this time supports any crypto. If they wanted they could open this up. Not sure if Apple would allow this (on an store app) without their 'slice' of the pie.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#908

Post by its-summertime »

stavros wrote: post #898
its-summertime wrote: post #895

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware of your point. I disagree with it. A lot of companies seemingly have found it viable to have first-class web apps as part of their lineup; Off the top of my head: Uber and Uber Eats, KFC, Patreon, (And every single competitor to Patreon), every single mini-app in China (where discoverability is much higher), etc etc. There are more app-having companies that have web apps than not

The original point wasn't that it's viable to also have a web app, but whether it's viable to only have a web app. How many of the companies you mentioned don't have mobile apps at all?

Of the patreon alternatives (dependent on content), Substack, X, Youtube, BuyMeACoffee, all have fan-side apps. kofi, Fourthwall, Squarespace, all the NSFW-centric alternatives, do not.

Of the mini-apps in China, I don't know, I was never exposed to the existence of their non-mini-app counterparts.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#909

Post by ndriscoll »

stavros wrote: post #904
ndriscoll wrote: post #903

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point doesn't make any sense. The only reason Apple's store can have "all" the apps is that they are a monopolist and take steps to disallow anyone from selling apps through any other channel, so there cannot possibly be multiple storefronts with different selections like their is in any other context. On Android for example, Play Store does not have "all" apps, or even most apps that I have on my phone. Because…

If you think "the web has orders of magnitude worse discoverability than mobile app stores" makes no sense, then there's not enough common ground for us to have a productive discussion on this.

Yes it is a nonsense statement. Literally, devoid of meaning. The web contains mobile app stores. e.g.

https://www.humblebundle.com/store/c/all?sort=bestselling&pa...

https://www.amazon.com/mobile-apps/b/?ie=UTF8&node=235014901...

https://play.google.com/store/

https://store.steampowered.com/ (yes, you can run PC games on Android if your hardware is up to the task)

https://store.epicgames.com/en-US/

Apple doesn't have some special magic "discoverability"; they just prevent any other stores from being able to compete with them. Actually, searching for the iOS app store, I get:

https://www.apple.com/app-store/

which has no obvious way to even browse or search apps? How am I supposed to see what's available? I need to buy an expensive phone before I can even see what it can run? This is more discoverable? The bottom nav bar entry for "App Store" just takes me to the same page. If I click on "Store" it just shows me hardware; no apps. Where's the store and how am I supposed to find it? Do I need to physically go into an Apple store and use a phone there to browse?

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#910

Post by browningstreet »

Matl wrote: post #906
browningstreet wrote: post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome doesn't do this, Chrome has a wallet and you're still stuck talking to your credit card company. It looks like you may have edited your comment, but the issues of Apple's app store payment percentage, the open/closed nature of their appstore, and the ability to sideload apps are 3 separate issues.

I don't think I edited my comment... > you're still stuck talking to your credit card company AFAIK Apple still talks to it too, they just have a deeper/better experience on the platforms they own and provide a service where they can generate a virtual card for you, so you're shielded from the merchant, but not from your card issuer. > Apple's app store payment percentage, the open/closed nature of their appstore, an…

> I don't think I edited my comment...

It might've been HN weirdness. I was getting the one sentence in one view and the whole message in the other view. Re-loading didn't get them consistent. Hmm.

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