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The $25k car is going extinct?

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Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#901

Post by tlogan »

VerminOctopus1 wrote: post #891
tlogan wrote: post #884

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> less expensive, cars have been > knocked off - the Rio, > the Prius C, the Fiesta.. You are incorrect. Prius C in 2005 was $21,510 (not really "less expensive") and that is about $34,827.67 in 2025. (See: https://www.kbb.com/toyota/prius/2005/ ) And in 2025 Prius starts from $28,350 (see: https://www.toyota.com/prius/ ) So this narrative that there are no more cheap cars is incorrect.

Comparing one model (which actually isn’t even the same model) over time doesn’t make sense. Also you’re moving the goalposts here, $28,350 base is not “cheap”

Yes - it is not cheap now. But it was NEVER cheap (as implied in the comment).

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#902

Post by lotsofpulp »

LUmBULtERA wrote: post #674
lotsofpulp wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

99% of people with an SUV will never use the "sport utility" aspect of it, and they could do all of the things you listed better with a minivan (Sienna/Odyssey/etc). But the driver would have to sit lower in a minivan. Which is what SUVs are really about, the ego boost one gets from sitting higher up (and the associated feelings with being able to not have to settle for a minivan, and being able to waste a little mon…

I don't follow this logic at all. We have a Model Y SUV. We use the space of its hatchback and frunk frequently, and it's much more efficient to drive than a Sienna or Odyssey. There's no logical reason to conclude a minivan would be better for our purposes.

A model Y is not anywhere near an SUV, regardless of classification for tax purposes. It's also not comparable because it is all electric.

The form factor of a typical SUV, such as an X7 or Land Cruiser or Explorer or Suburban, is inherently more wasteful than a minivan. The only thing those offer 99% of people is that they allow the driver to sit higher up, and be able to say they are not driving a minivan. Otherwise, the minivan provides more utility in every way.

>summer roadtrips, ski vacations, visiting family, moving stuff.

All of this stuff (in the manner 99% of people use their vehicle, i.e. not climbing rocky terrain like in the commercials) is easier to do in a minivan than an SUV. And I'm sure an electric minivan would be better than an electric SUV, except at signaling you can afford to forego the extra utility.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#903

Post by 0xffff2 »

Spivak wrote: post #803
remus wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a funny experience going to buy a used car with my partner a few years ago. Being a little naive I'd assumed being a cash buyer was a plus as they'd guarantee a quick sale, but as soon as the salesman realised he wasn't going to be signing a finance deal you could see him lose interest entirely. kinda funny to think they're in the business of selling loans rather than cars.

Or if you come with your own financing. I usually talk to the "finance guy" at the dealership because (so I've been told) they sometimes run promotions and can give you a rate better than your bank but lord heavens I've never seen it. They once offered me more than double the rate of my bank and for 2.5 times the term length. I'm sure that $150/mo or whatever payment for the rest of our life is attractive to someone…

When I bought my latest car ~2 years ago, the dealer's rate was something like half a percent higher than my banks. On a 3 year loan and with the $1000 kickback for taking the dealer financing, it ended up being marginally cheaper to take their loan.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#904

Post by ponector »

Marsymars wrote: post #813
ponector wrote: post #769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you should compare the same cars. I bet 13k was for a basic trim, with manual, less powerful engine etc. Car of 2025 has lots of features even in basic trims. My first car had no ac, no power steering, no power window, etc. And I'm not that old...

TBF if you go by new-car pricing now, manual has more value than a base-trim automatic. (And the automatic transmissions now are better than the automatics available in 13k cars back then.)

What do you mean by more value? In Europe manual is cheaper than automatic. In USA there are only high-performance vehicles offered with manual. However even then Elantra N is cheaper with manual.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#905

Post by kodt »

margalabargala wrote: post #886
tlogan wrote: post #876

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is 2005 list: - Chevrolet Aveo – Starting at $9,455 - Kia Rio – Starting at $10,570 - Hyundai Accent – Starting at $10,999 - Toyota Echo – Starting at $11,110 - Ford Focus ZX3 – Starting at $13,365 - Chevrolet Cavalier – Starting at $13,405 - Chrysler PT Cruiser – Starting at $13,995 - Dodge Neon SXT – Starting at $14,195 - Pontiac Sunfire – Starting at $14,200 see: https://www.kbb.com/pontiac/sunfire/2005 -Satu…

That's a list of "top 10 cars under $15k". It's not all cars under $15k, just the best 10 among the multitude.

Yeah I know you could get a basic model Corolla for around $12k in 2006 or so.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#906

Post by bumby »

kbelder wrote: post #851
dagw wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If those things are so important to people, they'll happily pay extra for them. Let the market decide! /s

Yes, but without the sarcasm.

But what do we do about externalities, like when the value is for other people? I don’t get much value out of my turn signals, but I assume other drivers do…

Oh, wait. That’s what regulators are for :-)

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#907

Post by secabeen »

BanterTrouble wrote: post #382

I work on my own cars now (as a hobby really) and one of the reasons the new cars are so expensive is they are much more complicated. A lot of this seems to be over-engineering IMO. This is alluded to in the article, but not explicitly stated. The cars I work on are from the early 90s and everything is very simple to understand. e.g. Electronics are normally simple circuits that aren't much more complicated than what…

I found a similar thing on a cheap water heater. California requires an additional sensor to ensure the heating chamber doesn't overheat. It's not common generally, and the error messages when it triggers are not that helpful. After a few years of intermittent water heater failures, I finally realized that there was this sensor that was causing all the problems. I bypassed the sensor with a 1K resistor, confirming the issue, then had a new sensor sent out under warranty. Quick swap and it's been back to normal. I never found any documentation or repair advice that even considered that the sensor might be bad, and since it was California-only, most repair guides or technical documentation didn't mention it.

It's really easy to have a sensor failure that indicates a major repair is needed, when the actual issue is the $1 sensor.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#908

Post by tlogan »

kodt wrote: post #905
margalabargala wrote: post #886

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a list of "top 10 cars under $15k". It's not all cars under $15k, just the best 10 among the multitude.

Yeah I know you could get a basic model Corolla for around $12k in 2006 or so.

This does not match the KBB.com: https://www.kbb.com/toyota/corolla/2005/

I’m just saying that I 100% understand that you think it was “cheaper before” but there is no data to show that. I honestly feel the same. Toyota Corolla was 13k in 2000: https://www.kbb.com/toyota/corolla/2000 - 25 years ago.

The core of my argument is this: today’s news manipulates perception by playing on emotions, which ultimately distorts the truth.

This article isn’t overly political, which makes it easier for us to debate without resorting to calling each other Nazis or communists. But when it comes to politics, distortion of truth happens all the time.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#909

Post by ajkjk »

scotty79 wrote: post #285
ajkjk wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the question we're asking is why the price of cars went up. "Inflation" isn't an answer. Inflation is what we call the price of cars going up. It still happens for a reason...

Inflation is a result of too much money being created than what is needed by the growth of the economy. Average price increase that we use to estimate it is just a useful proxy. Inflation is always the main contribution to price increase. It only makes sense to compare price raise above or below inflation if you want to unearth factors specific to any given product or industry.

I've never found that econ 101 logic credible. Even if money supply is ultimate the reason for prices going up, there's an intermediate step where somebody actually set a higher price. And there was a cause for their thinking. Not just "well there's more money going around so we can charge more " or "our parts and labor cost more so we've got to bump prices", but a synthesis of all that that decides the price to set, the types of cars to make, whether to sell and market a 'discount' model, etc.

So even though inflation may feed into that stuff, there's plenty of causality to inspect. Why aren't there cheaper cars? Not because there's more money, but because nobody decided to make and sell a cheaper car. That's the stuff that we should be asking about. Not waving our hands and saying 'sucks, inflation'. The inflation happens at the speed it does because of things like this.

The reason may well be: who would sell a car, or a car part, or their labor, for less when there's so much money going around? But we can still ask plenty of questions about that. Cause I'm pretty damn sure the labor isn't raking in the difference at a rate matching inflation. And it sure seems like there's plenty of room to compete on price, so if no one's doing that effectively, why not?

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#910

Post by knowaveragejoe »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #446
a_c wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any recommendation how to start learning repairing a car? I have absolutely zero experience. A friend of mine said just learn to change a tyre first and I have been procrastinating since.

build one from scratch (kit car)

I'd love a kit car that wasn't ridiculously expensive and/or designed to be raced. But I can understand that the kind of people who would invest the time in building a car would be okay with those propositions.

I wonder if there's a market for building something purely utilitarian, like a little hatchback or something, as a kit vehicle - with the express purpose of learning a lot of automotive principles along the way.

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