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Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

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Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#901

Post by rayiner »

saltcured wrote: post #872
thayne wrote: post #866

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in that case, once the fermentation system is built, the brewery no longer needs that employee. A better analogy is a brewery hires someone who builds a fermentation system, then continues to operate, maintain, repair, and improve the system over time. Some of the employee's time is spent on work that could probably considered R&D, some of it is on work that is clearly operation, and some isn't clearly one or the…

How does a chef get categorized? They develop recipes which have future value but also do a lot of ephemeral work product. I think the issue is this fantasy that a software develop only produces long term IP. Or how is it different from an executive who is developing strategy and market positions that have future value? Maybe it would make sense if we could distinguish such work products as a fraction of their total…

I think the fantasy is that software is mostly like inventing the transistor. Most software is CRUD apps that are more akin to a company’s profit-generating physical infrastructure.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#902

Post by bobmcnamara »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #585
bobmcnamara wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One example: "What they've actually done, congress said, is bought a capital good, like a machine." Replace "like a machine" with "like software"

How is that profound?

It wasn't supposed to be profound. It's accurate.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#904

Post by schroeding »

threeseed wrote: post #769
schroeding wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, if you lobby for a thing which does not do harm to other people, you are not the bad guy. If you do, you are. Lobbying itself is not immoral. The oil and gas industry, and the tobacco industry et al., lobbied (and lobby) for things which they know were (and are) doing harm. This isn't the case here, IMO. Code is not an asset in all (I would even argue most) cases - proven by companies which open source the vast…

> if you lobby for a thing which does not do harm to other people The reason this is being discussed now is because of its inclusion in the Big Beautiful Bill which will kill the poorest in society by kicking millions off Medicaid and food stamps and increase the debt to unsustainable levels. So if you support this tax cut for software developers you are the bad guy.

Ah. Thanks! Since the letter only calls it "reconciliation bill", I didn't make the connection. Not an American here, oops. Maybe creating "mega bill bundles" isn't the best idea in general. ^^'

I still think this specific reversion / change, for itself, would be something you can lobby for, though. It itself doesn't do harm, the push to include it in this specific bill may do (if it is the thing which tips the scale for it to be accepted).

This "tax cut" is (and was) simply the status quo in most western countries for virtually all businesses, e.g. in the EU. It itself is not immoral, as long as you see developers as normal office workers, which they IMO are.

The existence of silicon valley giants and their faults notwithstanding.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#905

Post by trhway »

dsr_ wrote: post #797
trhway wrote: post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>as management is an expense, but software engineers are not. is manager of AI agents (especially when they become more productive and capable than people) going to be a manager or software engineer?

IF they are a manager, then they are managing people. Are you paying appropriate salaries and benefits to your AI agents? Does HR have them in the system? ...no, not a manager. Aircraft are also more productive and capable than people in specific activities, and useless wastes of money in others.

>IF they are a manager, then they are managing people.

Not really. For example for L1, a visa for managers and executives, managing people isn't a hard requirement, instead it may be "employee’s ability to manage an essential function of the organization at a high level, without direct supervision of others", and thus project managers and architects and even senior engineers make the cut.

Handling capable AI agents would seem to fit if those AI agents perform "an essential function of the organization" and you manage them "at a high level, without direct supervision of others".

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#906

Post by neilv »

tekknik wrote: post #760
neilv wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Other kinds of messages take longer. Emails have to be manually read and sorted. Faxes have to be digitized and emailed. [...] By contrast, congressional staffers tally phone calls right away. Golly. Is this a problem? Hasn't this been solved already? Do they want to solve it? How much do they want to solve it, in terms of United States Dollars? This is now easy for many HNers to build, with the hard parts now done…

Please no AI interpreting sentiment in emails, the error rate / hallucinations at that scale would be dangerous.

To be clear, not necessarily sentiment analysis of the email (the pre-LLM kind, like are they angry, aggressive, etc.); but sentiment tally about voting on the legislation, like a phone operator might do, which might only be identifying which bill/issue is being talked about, and whether "vote for" vs. "vote against".

The limitations of that is part of why I suggested that following up with review of the email by a human later, for nuance. The other part is so they know they're reaching a human at their representative's office, not just talking to a machine.

I don't know much about politics other than Sorkin-esque TV dramas, but the original Web page said that timely tallies could help a politician avoid being in the situation of having to walk back a stated position on something. So I'd guess that's one way a real-time tally could still be very valuable, and I think an LLM is up to the hard parts of it.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#907

Post by Dylan16807 »

tossandthrow wrote: post #853
Dylan16807 wrote: post #802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the risks are similar, but your "regardless" is bypassing the point. We can value a real shoe pretty well. But what if we could duplicate all the shoes we built for less than a penny per pair? What would be the value of our inventory?

There are pretty established accounting rules for this.

For valuing digital goods?

Are those rules smarter than looking at the money it took to make? If so please share where I can read more.

If not, then despite being "established" the problem isn't solved.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#908

Post by Dylan16807 »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #845
Dylan16807 wrote: post #768

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? They're suggesting you spend a minute or two per month thinking about it, not meticulous tracking. That might not be practical , but what they are describing is a perfectly good use of the word "just".

A minute or two (or even 10 minutes) per month is basically just guessing/bullshitting. Anything that is accurate rather than imagination requires more overhead than this. Likely anything even remotely accurate requires the sort of micromanagement software that lawyers use to track billable hours, requires desktop-surveillance, and meeting minutes-dissection after-the-fact. Not sure how they will decide to rate reddi…

> A minute or two (or even 10 minutes) per month is basically just guessing/bullshitting.

Correct, they are suggesting basically just guessing.

Which is why "just" is correct for their suggestion.

It's not a good suggestion but it really is that easy to implement.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#909

Post by ryanisnan »

itsluther wrote: post #903
ryanisnan wrote: post #863

Is HN/YC going to submit the google form submissions to the relevant committee members on the signers' behalf?

Yes. It will be a letter with many many pages of signatures sent to the relevant members.

Thank you!

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#910

Post by robocat »

tsunamifury wrote: post #569
robocat wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think Zuck, the PayPal Mafia, and the blood-boy cabal bribed some Congresscritters to kill off what remained of their competition. What's with the craze for finding conspirational incentives? There's a repeatable pattern where commenters hallucinate an unreasonable incentive for everything. Motivations are difficult to discern (see courtrooms), and it is a modern vice to try and analyse incentives, but too often…

Uh have you worked in policy in faang? I have that would be the least insane tactic I saw used. I can’t believe you’re trying to claim the high ground in rationalism here and have no clue how bad it is.

No, but clearly you also have zero idea.

People in policy are not dealing with bribery and corruption (which is the framing of the comment I replied to).

If bribery is occurring, then I would expect it to be used to get higher value personally directed outcomes (not a few percent on the bottom line). The suggested incentives sound completely wrong to me (which is the point of my comment). Obviously my own ignorant opinion given that I have zero experience "bribing Congresscritters".

I can believe there is corruption, but I also believe smart people will hide their goals better than the internet peanut gallery assume.

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