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Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

bbc.com

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Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#901

Post by morphle »

morphle wrote: post #776

Before you debate (what was said in) this meeting I think you should look at the full recording first. I saw edited versons where the meaning of the 'spat' was changed by leaving out the context. This Dutch NOS news version [1] is longer than the BBC version and it is enlightening. Il'll try to search for a version that has the total recording (this version misses the opening remarks) from start to finish and still w…

A little bit more of the oval office exchange but still not the fully integral recording https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEOv4x_FIsc

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#902

Post by kakadu »

iamEAP wrote: post #871

Think a lot of people here are missing the forest for the trees. We are witnessing the collapse of the unipolar world order that has brought relative freedom and prosperity to most of the world for the last three and a half decades. I don’t know what comes next. No one does. But Europe needs a deep-rethink of a lot more than just defense if it wants to have any say in what the next world order is going to look like.…

> that has brought relative freedom and prosperity to most of the world for the last three and a half decades.

What an incredible take.

I cannot possibly think of a US intervention that went well for the receiving end.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#903

Post by sublimefire »

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #743

I have a naive question, as a foreigner: do European leaders have any kind of leverage on their US allies?

Europe is a very large market and ignoring it does not make much sense, countries buy high tech components and armaments and they are aligned in terms of export controls. Europeans have a lot of high tech products that are valued globally.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#904

Post by crossroadsguy »

From Wikipedia. Just as a cliched reminder:

> In 1994, Ukraine agreed to transfer these weapons to Russia for dismantlement and became a party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, in exchange for economic compensation and security assurances from Russia, the United States, United Kingdom and France to respect the Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders. Years later, Russia, one of the parties to the agreement, invaded Ukraine.

I live in the upper part of India and I suspect I could have been taking forced Chinese lessons right now if a woman, decades ago, who was called a bitch by a US secretary of state, didn't decide to say 'fuck it!' and went ahead with her plans to have our own modest nukes.

Would this world have been better off if no one had nukes? Of course, yes. I do believe so.

Would we (the world; not just India) have been better off with just USA, Russia, France, UK, China having nukes? Fuck no!!!

And I have a foreboding feeling the list is not going to stop with Pakistan, NK, and that undeclared member of this club. Also, I just hope South Africa has no reasons in the future to regret.

And then: I mean - does anyone else not find the very fucking idea of NPT ridiculous? You can't have nukes, we have and we will keep having it? Why? Just because. Come, sign this now. Assurances? Yeah, maybe. What the actual fuck!

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#905

Post by edelwiess »

Nition wrote: post #261

I normally avoid commenting on politics entirely but I feel compelled to comment here. I'm sure anyone who's ever been bullied in their life will feel exactly what's happening in that video clip. Two big kids, confident in their position and backing each other up, gang up on the outsider. Did they ever really want to make a deal at all? Absolutely infuriating and saddening to watch.

Yes it was out right bullying after being challenged. Vance quickly devolved to “don’t question us, say thank you”. I showed and discussed with my kids as example of textbook bullying

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#907

Post by anonu »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #127

I got this weird dissonance - like this was a science from a TV show about the White House, because no-one, I mean no-one would ever do that inpublic. Apart from common courtesy, even basic management training says praise in public, criticise in private. Just doing this in front of the world’s media … it’s hard to understand

Which is why Zelensky mishandled the event. He should have just kept his mouth shut in front of the media. Especially since he's not as articulate in English.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#908

Post by throwaway290 »

GMoromisato wrote: post #270

I would like to know what the alternatives are. None that I can think of are palatable: 1. Support Ukraine enough so that Russia doesn't take too much more territory, but not enough for Russia to feel threatened and escalate the war. This was the Biden plan and it sounds like what Europe wants. I just don't see how this ends the war. Is this just buying time for someone to depose Putin? 2. Support Ukraine enough so i…

Russia is basically not a major player anymore. It's a vassal state of PRC. Thinking it would be a useful ally against PRC is a complete misread of the situation. Sacrificing a state and alliance with EU for this is doubly insane. US and West was doing absolutely fine and held ground and the values (freedom etc) against oppressive dictatorships right up until this year. It's distressing.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#909

Post by mihaaly »

basisword wrote: post #389

If European leaders don't watch this and realise they need to take control of their own destiny they're idiots. Several European leaders visited this week bending the knee to try and stave off tariffs. Time to stand up, realise the US is no longer a reliable ally, and start building (on all fronts - military, manufacturing, tech, etc). Given the American people voted for this guy twice - the second time in spite of J…

More like the europeans acted like adult gentleman. Not like a frustrated and insecure imbecile, as the trend seems to be for representatives of the people in some places. Do not mix up handling a dangerous child with loaded weapon in the hand nicely with relying on him. They go home and organize the way the situation deserves. Trump is a dumb loser anyway, riding the waves of mass frustration without comprehending much beyond whistles and bells and shiny shiny things, a child would find center of the life.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#910

Post by tim333 »

mikewarot wrote: post #795

Trump and his administration seem hell bent on undoing everything that's held the world together since WWII. We in the US are going to pay the price, as we lose the privilege of having the US Dollar as the world's reserve currency, while at the same time our nations institutions are destroyed from the inside in a deliberate act of sabotage. We're going to see our standard of living drop by 80% or more because of this…

I don't think it'll be that bad unless they manage nuclear war. It's kind of a shame though.
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