Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza • Hacker News Board

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#901

Post by pas » Thu, Jan 16, 2025, 5:07 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #877

pjc50 wrote: post #835

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel, as it it currently constituted (based on 1967 borders) is not a viable state if the West Bank is a hostile entity with a standing army, and funded to a similar extent as Hezbollah. The West Bank bulges into Israel and effectively cuts the country in half and places all strategic targets within shelling distance. This is exactly the same argument that Russia has been using to annex territories such as Crimea…

>This is exactly the same argument that Russia has been using to annex territories such as Crimea The rhetoric may be superficially similar, but facts on the ground aren't. The Russian state is not under an existential threat in the same way that Israel would be with Hezbollah in the north, and a similar entity in the West Bank and Gaza. Israel is a tiny nation with a tiny population. Russian and Israel's security is…

> Imagine a world, where post-disengagement there were no attacks from Gaza ...

Imagine a world where pre-disengagement there's no radicals on either side. Imagine a world where Israel works with people displaced in 1948-1967, and utilizing its overwhelming economic advantage finds acceptable solutions to defuse the problems, instead of supporting more land grabs.

The big gestures (like withdrawing from Gaza) are of course important, but we still must not mistake cause for effect, or the outliers for the baseline.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#902

Post by r0p3 » Thu, Jan 16, 2025, 5:09 PM UTC

nsoonhui wrote: post #540

r0p3 wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's accurate to say they "left the place some 20 years ago" since they maintained a strict blockade on what could go in and out. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip

You confuse the cause and effect, the blockade was there because Hamas fired rocket at Israel after coming to power via election. Also Egypt blocked their side also, so I'm not sure what's the point you are making, beyond just Israel bashing.

The point I'm making is that it is inaccurate to say Israel "left the place some 20 years ago" because they maintained a strict blockade on it. I didn't say anything about cause and effect.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#903

Post by Ntrails » Thu, Jan 16, 2025, 5:10 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #877

pjc50 wrote: post #835

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel, as it it currently constituted (based on 1967 borders) is not a viable state if the West Bank is a hostile entity with a standing army, and funded to a similar extent as Hezbollah. The West Bank bulges into Israel and effectively cuts the country in half and places all strategic targets within shelling distance. This is exactly the same argument that Russia has been using to annex territories such as Crimea…

>This is exactly the same argument that Russia has been using to annex territories such as Crimea The rhetoric may be superficially similar, but facts on the ground aren't. The Russian state is not under an existential threat in the same way that Israel would be with Hezbollah in the north, and a similar entity in the West Bank and Gaza. Israel is a tiny nation with a tiny population. Russian and Israel's security is…

> I mentioned 1967 borders, because as best as I can gather, that is the current Palestinian position.

The Hamas position (as best I can figure it) is the dissolution of the Israeli state entirely and Palestine restored. Whether you consider that the Palestinian position is open.

The Israeli position (as best I figure it) is to do whatever it takes to be unassailable - everything else is second order.

There are much more moderate positions throughout both sets of people, but I feel like they're the defining ones because they drive the violence (and subsequent retaliation)?

Open to arguments against

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#904

Post by robertoandred » Thu, Jan 16, 2025, 5:11 PM UTC

slt2021 wrote: post #485

robertoandred wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going to pretend that Jews haven’t lived there for thousands and thousands of years, before the Arabs arrived?

there are several flaws in your typical zionist argument: 1. jews as a minority have lived in the lands of Filistine and Jerusalem peacefully and coexisted just fine for millennia, before the zionist project. 2. the fact that small minority of jews lived there does not give an excuse to ethnically cleanse the local population of arabs. 3. the claim that modern european jews from Rhine and pale of settlement (AshkeNaz…

When you ethnically cleanse a population, that population tends to go down. The opposite has happened to Arabs living in and around Israel.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#905

Post by r0p3 » Thu, Jan 16, 2025, 5:13 PM UTC

beagle3 wrote: post #532

r0p3 wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's accurate to say they "left the place some 20 years ago" since they maintained a strict blockade on what could go in and out. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip

It obviously wasn’t so strict since the Palestinians were still able to send thousands of rockets. Gaza also has a border with Egypt, which Israel doesn’t control. For their own reasons, the Egyptians also blockade Gaza - although they did let in all the explosives and weapons that were used against Israel.

I agree that the Egyptians also blockaded it, which is also explained in the wiki I shared. It is still inaccurate (and intentionally misleading imo) to say "Israel left the place some 20 years ago".

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#906

Post by robertoandred » Thu, Jan 16, 2025, 5:15 PM UTC

ookdatnog wrote: post #784

robertoandred wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you didn’t notice when Hamas sowed a whole fresh generation of "I will sacrifice everything to wipe out Hamas" Israeli youth.

I don't think this is a symmetrical situation. Life in Israel is quite comfortable. Young people have hopes and dreams beyond sacrificing themselves in an eternal war. Palestinians in Gaza have an extremely bleak outlook on the future and effectively no hope that anything meaningful will change in their lifetime, and they feel collectively humiliated by decades of occupation. Sacrificing "everything" is a lot easier…

Did you know that Gaza has shopping malls and waterfront resorts? Did you know that Israel had been opening up more and more jobs for Palestinians within Israel? Until they decided to throw all that progress away on October 7th.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#907

Post by robertoandred » Thu, Jan 16, 2025, 5:16 PM UTC

smashah wrote: post #774

robertoandred wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, Cornell still employs the professor who called Oct 7 exhilarating. How would you describe that?

The holocaust justifiers truly are the most gormless people who lack basic comprehension. Where did I say the AA program captured 100% of jobs? And did you read which industries I mentioned? Probably not, I mentioned tech and media. Cornell is a an academic institution, many people know this actually. Academia is not Tech and media industry. The definition of Academia is the environment or community concerned with th…

By holocaust justifiers, you're referring to the people like that professor who celebrated October 7th?

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#908

Post by lossolo » Thu, Jan 16, 2025, 5:20 PM UTC

neoromantique wrote: post #881

lossolo wrote: post #858

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be aware that this account has only one post (this one) and was created around 8 months ago when reports started to appear about Israeli influence on American public opinion online. "Israeli State-sponsored Internet propaganda include the Hasbara, Hasbara Fellowships, Act.IL, and the Jewish Internet Defense Force. Supporters generally frame this "hasbara" as part of its fight towards improving their image abroad give…

Anything to say on the substance of the comment?

Sure, I have already made a lot of them in the context of the Israel-Palestinian conflict. Sorry, it's just tiring to repeat the same things all the time in these threads.

So the assertion that these parties hold "little power" is contradicted by their significant roles in the government. Itamar Ben-Gvir, leader of the far-right Otzma Yehudit party, was appointed to a newly created ministry position granting him authority over the state's police force. Ben-Gvir, a former follower of extremist Rabbi Meir Kahane, has a history of incitement and inflammatory remarks towards Israel's Arab population. [1] Such appointments indicate that these parties have substantial influence within the coalition, as without them there is no coalition anymore. These parties have successfully advocated for policies aligning with their agendas. The coalition agreement with the Religious Zionist Party includes commitments to expand settlements in the West Bank and to work towards applying Israeli sovereignty over these territories.[6] Which contradicts what OP stated.

As to the claim that the government is merely "trying to reform Israel's supreme court system" overlooks the implications of these reforms. The proposed changes aim to shift power from the judiciary to the Knesset majority coalition, including an "override clause" that would allow the Knesset to overturn Supreme Court rulings with a simple majority vote.[2][3][4]

There are reports of increased government influence over media outlets, with certain channels promoting nationalistic agendas aligned with the Prime Minister's views.[5]

1. https://www.jta.org/2022/12/21/israel/whos-who-in-israels-ne...

2. https://www.cpreview.org/articles/2023/2/judicial-reform-in-...

3. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/09/ne...

4. https://www.american.edu/sis/news/20230106-four-ways-netanya...

5. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2025/01/20/netanyahus-med...

6. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-seventh_government_of_I...

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#909

Post by ars » Thu, Jan 16, 2025, 5:36 PM UTC

croes wrote: post #600

ars wrote: post #4

I credit Trump's pressure on Hamas - Hamas eventually softened a lot of their positions because they realized they had no choice. And I wish Biden had done a better job of supporting Israel, this war could have ended a lot sooner if Hamas had realized that the entire world was pressuring them to surrender. Instead the message got diluted with support for Palestinians, which Hamas interpreted as support for themselves…

They agreed to the same terms from last May, so where did the soften anything? Looks more like the Iranian hostage situation when Carter lost against Reagan. >if Hamas had realized that the entire world was pressuring them to surrender. I guess you mean the entire western world. The rest doesn't care or doesn't Israel vs Hamas as good vs evil. Same with Russian vs Ukraine.

> so where did the soften anything?

That's not true. Hamas agreed to:

* Allow Israel to patrol the Philadelphi corridor.

* Allow Israel troops to remain in a buffer zone

* Provided an actual list of hostages which they refused originally

* Agreed to a temporary ceasefire with hopes of negotiated a permanent one (they wanted the whole thing in one shot).

Israel on the other hand changed nothing except possible the specifics of who would be released (Israel will releases murderers, which earlier they did not want to do).

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#910

Post by ars » Thu, Jan 16, 2025, 5:40 PM UTC

kombine wrote: post #829

ars wrote: post #4

I credit Trump's pressure on Hamas - Hamas eventually softened a lot of their positions because they realized they had no choice. And I wish Biden had done a better job of supporting Israel, this war could have ended a lot sooner if Hamas had realized that the entire world was pressuring them to surrender. Instead the message got diluted with support for Palestinians, which Hamas interpreted as support for themselves…

> And I wish Biden had done a better job of supporting Israel What a weird take. Without Biden's support of Israel this genocide would not have been possible. How do you mean it should have supported Israel more? Allow these psychopats to nuke Gaza?

What genocide? Since when is there a genocide? Do you mean when Hamas tried to genocide Jews?

And you think Hamas wanted to nuke Gaza? Do you mean Hamas wanted all this destruction of their country? What did they gain from that?

Biden should have told Hamas to surrender, he should have told Palestinians that their Hamas leadership is leading them to death and destruction, and if the Palestinians don't stop the US will get involved. Which is what Trump did, and now there's a ceasefire.

Hamas feeds off of Palestinians support, believing it's for them. They need to know that everyone wants them dead and destroyed. But that didn't happen till Trump. Biden was weak, and did very little helpful.