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Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

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Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#901

Post by hughesjj »

eptcyka wrote: post #860
threeseed wrote: post #841

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then the resolution to this war is simple: Russia returns Crimea, Donbass etc and Ukraine promises not to join NATO. Strange that Putin hasn't proposed such a deal.

Not joining NATO is just a way of deferring the genocide. A regional power has no chance to stand against a global superpower on its own. If not NATO, then a different coalition.

You could always just bootstrap a nuclear program in Ukraine instead.

They gave up their nukes in exchange for protection from Russia and the US. Both countries have failed to keep up their end of the bargain, so it's sensible for Ukraine to get back what they gave up.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#902

Post by petre »

ThinkBeat wrote: post #854
beezlebroxxxxxx wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Appears to be", in English, generally means "on first look/glance." It runs very close to "I believe such and such." If I asked you for an answer to a math question, then you showed me the answer with how you got there, on a very quick glance I might say: "That appears to be correct." It could mean they've seen more evidence to make that assessment, or are basing that assessment on the same evidence we have. Regardl…

In a political and intelligence sense "appears to be" is a rhetorical tool for propaganda purposes, or / and to cover you ass. He could say "We have no evidence of this being sabotage and further speculation is not useful at this point” which is what he says, from one perspective. On the other he is framing a conspiracy theory: "Something happened that appears to be sabotage and sabotage would be done by the enemy. "…

I've read the original Zeit article. What a bunch of mumbo jumbo.

https://www.zeit.de/politik/2023-09/nord-stream-pipelines-at...

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#903

Post by dralley »

coldtea wrote: post #875
dralley wrote: post #871

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Listening to people who probably proclaim themselves "anti-imperialists" give full-throated defenses of imperialism never gets old. >prepared to fight their proxy war to the last of them The natural corollary to this ridiculous "fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian" argument, which you guys never seem to acknowledge, is that it already assumes that Russia will murder every last Ukrainian and take their land. That's…

> Listening to people who probably proclaim themselves "anti-imperialists" give full-throated defenses of imperialism never gets old. Yeah, nothing like nato when it comes to anti-imperialism...

Please explain why Russia has the right to dictate foreign policy postures to their independent former colonies, or disregard treaties signed with them.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#904

Post by cmrdporcupine »

YZF wrote: post #447
rdtsc wrote: post #82

> "it’s obvious this wasn’t an accidental anchor drop.” If it's "he who shall not be named", gotta admit, that's a clever strategy: ramp up sabotage and see how NATO/EU will feel about their "red lines", and how well does that article 5 really work in practice. Is it worth more than the paper it's printed on? Let's find out! People have been laughing at the West crossing multiple Russian "red lines" and the Russians…

Putin would not be where he is without the support of China. And China has plenty of levers that the west can press without needing to do sabotage or war. 15% of China's exports go the US. EU another 15% or so. The west won the cold war without firing a shot or blowing any bridges or sinking any ships. I do agree Putin will change course if he feels he can lose power but it's not clear how pressure on Russia leads to…

Despite all the shifts in China and in Chinese-Western relations in the last 10 years it remains the fact that the thing China cares about the most is commerce. If the spice stops flowing because of international warfare, China will not be happy.

Which is why I think it's insane that both US political parties have made "trade war with China" a major policy plank. I think the CCP is as awful as the next person, but cutting trade now means cutting leverage later.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#905

Post by pelasaco »

wbl wrote: post #744
vasco wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I lived in a world where it's so easy to know who is good and who is evil and to pinpoint them so well.

They murdered an entire town. Well several. Raped and tortured those they didn't kill. Kidnap children to Russianize them. Torture and kill POWs. The only difference between them and the Germans is that they haven't carried out industrial slaughter of Jews.

And now Germans are paying Ukraine bills. History is much more complicated than we think..

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#906

Post by coffeebeqn »

oneshtein wrote: post #594
sekai wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It takes tanks half-a-day to cross the Baltic states to reach the sea And how long does it take for the F35 to fly across all Baltic States? 30 minutes at max speed. Without air supremacy, Russia would be dead in the water. > That is the time Russia wants to buy. Once Russian forces are already in Riga, Tallinn, Vilnus, the NATO will have a decision to make on whether to bomb the Russian forces already placed by th…

RF has no air supremacy in Ukraine, so they have high loses, but they advance anyway. Small or large losses will not stop an empire, except Imperial Japan maybe.

Ukraines Air Force is tiny and poorly equipped. Compare it to just the Nordics for example who are soon on hundreds of F-35 and Gripen. Staging any mass movements against that kind of air support will be challenging.

Besides NATO already has a large land based army as well. US, Turkey, Poland , Finland all have large ground forces

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#907

Post by cmrdporcupine »

blub wrote: post #494
looperhacks wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our governing coalition just split and there will be early elections (most likely) in February. Nobody has a majority right now, any anmouncement is currently unlikely. In fact our lovely head of the Government just reaffirmed that we won't send taurus to the ukraine.

These long-range missiles are a short-time tactic designed to merely hurt the Russians or prevent them from doing certain actions under threat of pain and not a real strategy. Ukraine hasn’t had any battlefield successes since the Kursk Hail Mary which failed early and is now only maintained with the hope of improving their negotiating position when the time comes. The approval of long-range strikes by the US & co li…

Regardless of your other points, I think approval of long range strikes has more to do with Biden doing what he can before leaving office. And leaving a calculus for Trump: keep with the policy and irk Putin and his other patrons, or cancel it and look weak and anti-Ukraine.

This decision might have been made earlier if the election hadn't been in the way.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#908

Post by cmrdporcupine »

blub wrote: post #487
matthewdgreen wrote: post #295

This would be an excellent time for Germany to announce that it is tripling munitions production, and that they’re going to do whatever they have to do to protect the territorial integrity of Europe. But they won’t.

Meanwhile, in the real world Germany is de-industrializing because of the high energy prices and competition from China and US.

The entire west has been deindustrializing for the last 30 years.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#910

Post by Terr_ »

fsloth wrote: post #838
loandbehold wrote: post #818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia is responsible but not alone. This war could have been prevented by not pushing Ukraine into NATO. It's THE reason for the war.

That’s bullshit. I’m sorry, but I’m tired of apologists falling to Russian state lies. Falling over to Russian lies is not independent thinking. The first rule of kremnology is that Russia always lies without a shame, as lies are usefull and they incur zero cost on the liar. Russia invaded because they felt Ukraine was showing a bad example of slavic people becoming a democracy. Also Russia has always had an affinity…

> Also there is the narrative of lost colonial honor,

Useful word: Revanchism [0], for people who want to conquer places they claim they once-owned.

[0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/revanchist

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