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'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

aljazeera.com

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#901

Post by jncfhnb »

exodust wrote: post #898
jncfhnb wrote: post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A group like hamas cannot functionally surrender. Nor does it have any incentive to.

Why can't hamas surrender? Why would you grant hamas exception to basic actions such as laying down arms? Of course hamas can surrender. It involves dropping weapons, raising hands, and submitting to the forces who have you out-gunned. That's how surrendering works. Surrendering and releasing hostages would go a long way towards the peace that so many want.

Hamas could stop fighting, or it could technically dissolve itself in some nonsense world. But it does not derive legitimacy from overt, visible structures. Polite surrender is antithetical to its existence.

Hamas does not want peace. It benefits from violent conflict. Let alone the fact that Iran sits there too in the mix

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#902

Post by random_upvoter »

aluminum96 wrote: post #644

Al Jazeera is an exceptionally disreputable source for coverage on this particular issue. It's not just their primary source of funding -- the Qatari state -- but also their abhorrent track record of running stories with no factual basis (such as in the wake of the Al-Ahli incident). I can't point to anything specifically incorrect about this reporting. But you have to take a lot of primary-source-based reporting on…

Do you think the current report at all incredible given Israel abysmal track record concerning human rights versus the Palestinian people?

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#903

Post by C6JEsQeQa5fCjE »

babyshake wrote: post #829
__blockcipher__ wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Leaders have also said they will kill Jews anywhere in the world, btw I'm curious, is your claim that one of the current leaders of Hamas said this? If so I'd love to read the quote. > If Israel doesn't take out Hamas, it is entirely unclear if it will be able to prevent them from carrying out more attacks in the future. One counterargument is that taking out Hamas, if they succeed (I'm not bullish), is likely to j…

Not saying I disagree, but where does the 20,000 overwhelmingly civilian number come from? One of the things that seems really difficult about Hamas is from my understanding, they do not wear a uniform and shelter amongst non-combatantants.

A fair question, but it is really not difficult to see why the claim must be true. Here [1] is one source for the death toll in Gaza by direct military action (not including people burried under the rubble of destroyed buildings, dying of starvation, all the lives that disease will claim over the following weeks and months and so on).

About 70% of killed people are estimated to be women and children. Those are not Hamas fighters. Even if you assume that every adult male that has been killed was a Hamas fighter (which is obviously not going to be the case), and even if we pretend that men being killed is okay, that is still 70% of civilians dying compared to enemy combatants. That is the basis for "overwhelmingly civilian" deaths claim.

Israel also constantly claimed that Hamas is hiding in tunnels underground, yet they were killing people by bombing residential buildings in a display of logical contradiction. That alone will lead one to conclude that they are mostly killing civilians.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestini...

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#904

Post by kmlx »

seo-speedwagon wrote: post #818
kmlx wrote: post #809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> blockaded from land, sea and air why do you think that is? why is gaza fenced off?

My personal opinion? Israel’s trying to prosecute its genocide slowly enough that it won’t be noticed / stopped. But if you’re looking for some more expansive reading on the subject you can start here. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mowing_the_lawn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

[flagged]

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#905

Post by tim333 »

throwaway48r7r wrote: post #202

It would be nice if people in the region at least pretended to be working towards peaceful solutions.

Well I think most people in the region want peace, Israelis included. However if Hamas is dedicated to war the basis of religious beliefs what are you going to do?

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#906

Post by tim333 »

noworriesnate wrote: post #13

> “When they spoke to us in Hebrew and we wouldn’t understand, they’d beat us up,” he continues. > “They hit me in the back where my kidneys are and my legs. They took my family, and I don’t know where they are,” he says, his voice breaking. > Before they were forced inside the warehouse, Israeli female soldiers came and spat on the men, Mohammed recalls. > In the warehouse, it was common for groups of five soldiers…

Also a little naive. I mean more than viewing them as lesser human beings they are viewing them as the enemy. Obviously a bit unfair if they don't support Hamas and it's actions but that's war I guess.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#908

Post by GaryNumanVevo »

tim333 wrote: post #905
throwaway48r7r wrote: post #202

It would be nice if people in the region at least pretended to be working towards peaceful solutions.

Well I think most people in the region want peace, Israelis included. However if Hamas is dedicated to war the basis of religious beliefs what are you going to do?

How better to respond to a decade's long violent oppression than to start a violent revolt against the conditions?

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#909

Post by exodust »

jncfhnb wrote: post #901
exodust wrote: post #898

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't hamas surrender? Why would you grant hamas exception to basic actions such as laying down arms? Of course hamas can surrender. It involves dropping weapons, raising hands, and submitting to the forces who have you out-gunned. That's how surrendering works. Surrendering and releasing hostages would go a long way towards the peace that so many want.

Hamas could stop fighting, or it could technically dissolve itself in some nonsense world. But it does not derive legitimacy from overt, visible structures. Polite surrender is antithetical to its existence. Hamas does not want peace. It benefits from violent conflict. Let alone the fact that Iran sits there too in the mix

> 'Polite surrender'

Shirtless men surrendered so others can. Gaza is crumbling so the more shirtless men the better to encourage an end to violence.

Israel should make sure not to disrespect those who surrender if they want more to follow. Maybe incentivise surrender beyond "we will bomb you otherwise". Regarding the shirtless thing, I was surprised to learn Hamas imposed laws ban men in Gaza from swimming topless (wikipedia). Before even getting to military Hamas, the "civil Hamas" has a long list of horrendous attributes.

> 'Hamas does not want peace. It benefits from violent conflict.'

Where's the benefit of dying or losing resources? The benefit of brutally targeting civilians? Unless we really are dealing with lesser humans? I've seen fictional zombies on TV behave with more restraint than jihad terrorists. Zombies would actually be easier to deal with when confined to an area, not yet spread over the world. IDF are undoubtedly fighting terror with terror, exactly like most of us would fighting against zombies.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#910

Post by arp242 »

Both Jews and Palestinian have legitimate grievances, going back over a hundred years, and they are so numerous that it seems pointless to enumerate them here. And these grievances have consistently been used by both sides to trivialize of deny the grievances of the other side. Its is the ultimate Oppression Olympics.

The problems are also much deeper than just "Netanyahu and Hamas". Not only does Netanyahu keep getting re-elected, these ultra hard-right Religious Zionist people have also gained quite a lot of ground, and these people are utterly bonkers, having expressed views that are nothing short of genocidal (even before the current war). And at the same time Hamas also has fairly wide-spread support among the people of Gaza, and Hamas has also expressed views that are nothing short of genocidal.

In short, it's a cultural problem, not a "Netanyahu and Hamas"-problem. Conflicts like this ends when people get tired of the violence and stop caring about who did what to who, and just want it to stop. This is why the Good Friday Accords in Northern Ireland have held, in spite of some opposition, as well as lingering grievances and even outright hatred, from both sides.

I'm not seeing this willingness here. The last time this was really present was the 90s, a hopeful period in general, and the Oslo accords between Rabin and Arafat seemed to be the start of the end of the conflict. It was not to be, and things didn't end well for either men: one got murdered by one of his own religious nutjobs and the other eventually got side-tracked by his own religious nutjobs, and things have only gotten worse since then.

I'm not hopeful for a resolution any time soon. Solutions for fundamental problems like "Gaza has been an open air prison for 15 years and we need to do something with these people" are barely being asked, and even the question itself is met with hostility by some.

Maybe someone still has a savegame from a few decades ago and we can try again? That seems the most plausible solution.

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