Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes • Hacker News Board

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#901

Post by paiute » Tue, Jan 24, 2023, 2:36 PM UTC

xp84 wrote: post #485

kbos87 wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am really of two minds about this. On one hand, yes, the suggestion that I leave a tip and the amount suggested has ballooned to a ridiculous level in some businesses. On the other hand, I recognize that there are plenty of businesses that still don't offer a way to tip at all (Starbucks until very recently), and more importantly, that none of these employees make anywhere near a living wage. Having worked service…

> none of these employees make anywhere near a living wage > the misery of minimum wage coffee shop employees. i don't know, TONS of people make way less than baristas and other counter-service workers. Lots of the customers of those baristas make similar wages as they do. Why does the barista deserve that money more? The maids at a hotel make less than a Starbucks barista, and there's no way they get significant tip…

Wow. this attitude is awful and sadly not that uncommon. I have a friend whose household income is around 400k, is an effective alturist, and tips 10% at restaurants because he thinks tipping is unfair. The only place you're really expected to tip is a restaurant - 15-20%. everything else is optional, but when you make a ton of money and have taken care of your own, you tip people well for the hard work they do for you. Seriously, most of on this site, if we've been working 10+ years should be giving a 20 to the handyman, or leaving $10 on the bed at the hotel.

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#902

Post by nwah1 » Tue, Jan 24, 2023, 2:37 PM UTC

As far as I can tell, there is no point whatsoever to have tipping as an option on payment terminals.

You use them when you are getting takeout, or when you are at a fast-casual place. If there is waitstaff, then they take your card and you never see a terminal. But tipping is only customary when there is involvement of waitstaff. Complete disconnect.

Printing receipts with a tip line in a circumstance where there is no involvement of waitstaff is also pretty sketchy.

They should just ban it on these terminals and on the receipts. Tip with cash if you want to. Let businesses set fair wages and prices accordingly. End of story.

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#903

Post by holistio » Tue, Jan 24, 2023, 2:37 PM UTC

musingsole wrote: post #878

holistio wrote: post #792

I live in Central Europe and I think our version of tipping makes a lot more sense than what's common in North America. If we receive exceptional service, we pay a little extra - usually 10% or less. Staff doesn't expect to be paid from tips, business owners don't expect their staff to be paid from tips, customers don't have a guilt trip because they feel like if they don't tip generously the staff will be underpaid.…

> U.S. tipping doesn't make any sense from a European point of view. Because you're thinking about it too hard or otherwise unaware of the inner turnings of the system. Where it matters, servers are almost their own industry, swapping gigs at this or that restaurant to work with this or that regional manager. The restaurant gets their money from the bill, the server gets their money direct from the customer they help…

> swapping gigs at this or that restaurant to work with this or that regional manager

This or that restaurant or this or that regional manager could give them a fair wage and incorporate their labour cost in the prices of the items on the menu.

I just had a chat with an AWS customer support agent earlier today... should I send them $10 for their service? Next month they could be working for GCP (or this or that) support, how can I expect AWS to pay them directly?

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#904

Post by yardie » Tue, Jan 24, 2023, 2:39 PM UTC

pull_my_finger wrote: post #777

jandrewrogers wrote: post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Context matters. The dynamics of the business are fundamentally different because many employees prefer tips to the alternative, and they have have many options where to work. Employees have a lot of leverage due to a chronic labor shortage. This dynamic has played out time and again in Seattle, where business owners tried to switch to a "no tipping" model with a 20% mandatory service charge but ultimately had to rel…

> tried to switch to a "no tipping" model with a 20% mandatory service charge Sounds like a false dichotomy. Why is the only other option still an imposed cost on the customer? Wouldn't it be nice if the bad servers just got fired like any other profession and the good servers got a bonus or something from the business owner? Maybe people shouldn't "aspire" to be cafe baristas and chain restaurant wait staff. There a…

> There are plenty of students and elderly that could handle the job

There is not an infinite supply of students who have the time to do that job. Our son worked at a coffee shop. Until the manager started pressuring him to work more hours than he had time for.

Some people think other people's jobs are bullshit. And then you end up with a shortage of competent workers. Every job should be lucrative.

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#905

Post by DrThunder » Tue, Jan 24, 2023, 2:42 PM UTC

orangea wrote: post #190

DrThunder wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't. For sit down restaurants, or many service oriented jobs it makes for a better customer experience. I agree for counter service it where they want tips BEFORE the service experience it makes no sense. You ought to try sitting down in a restaurant in the EU. They do the bare minimum to serve you. Tying a possible bonus to the way you act in customer service facing role has a lot of benefits. "In addition it ge…

> Do you think it's somehow more altruistic to provide subjectively uglier individuals the same wage? Bias based on attractiveness is no worse than bias based on personality or any other trait. Your point is moot anyway, in a capitalistic society people can just choose to visit another business where the staff has the traits they desire. Your point seems to be that there is no inherent moral good in distributing reso…

You are correct. In fact, I'd call it a moral BAD to forcefully redistribute resources according to someone's weird dystopian fantasy that everyone can be equal through some ridiculous idea of UN-achievable utopian equity.

The ONLY way that is possible is to bring down the higher achieving people to the lowest common denominator. You cannot bring people UP past a certain level.

"And I consider it obvious that "Bias based on attractiveness is no worse than bias based on personality or any other trait" isn't something that would be widely agreed upon." -

This completely case dependent there are careers where intelligence is sought and there are careers where attractiveness may be advantageous. The only reason this is "obvious" to you is because you've been tainted by recent modern thought that believes there's no value in physical attractiveness.The fact your bias towards certain physical traits is fine while other physical traits are off limits should tell you something about the cognitive dissonance of this though pattern. Maybe you ought to ask yourself why it's ok to be biased against physical attractiveness but not physical skin color????

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#906

Post by everforward » Tue, Jan 24, 2023, 2:43 PM UTC

adenozine wrote: post #690

frameset wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would the Americans With Disabilities act apply here?

The ADA is mostly environmental issues. By that I mean if your business has proper ramps, braille on signage for ingress/egress/restrooms/hard copy menus. It doesn’t mandate that a business must prioritize disabled customers or even that every person with a disability be able to use the service. Again, car companies are the canonical excepted business, but the ADA cannot force you to serve a customer that your busine…

I think the ADA might apply here. Domino's lost an ADA lawsuit because their online ordering wasn't accessible. Disability is also a protected class here, but I'm not sure if or to what degree that would mean anything. Afaik you can't refuse to serve a protected class at a public establishment, but I don't know if that compels them to make modifications to the business or not.

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#907

Post by unethical_ban » Tue, Jan 24, 2023, 2:43 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #619

unethical_ban wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I go to a bar that is cashless and still see people have to leave because they only had cash (or didn't want to use their card). To play devil's advocate, credit cards are another way to get tracked, a great way for a duopoly of companies to skim 1-3% off the economy, a way to be analyzed by the merchant, a way to get more explicitly prompted to pay a 20% tip, and more hassle than handing a $5 for a $4.73 coffee and…

> I go to a bar that is cashless and still see people have to leave because they only had cash (or didn't want to use their card). And I see the same issue when I go to places that only take cash: people have to leave because they only have a credit card. Or they pony up some ridiculous fee to take cash from the ATM in the bar. > credit cards are another way to get tracked I personally don't care too much about this,…

Interesting that you left off the past line of my post in your otherwise thorough reply.

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#908

Post by dav_Oz » Tue, Jan 24, 2023, 2:45 PM UTC

From a macro-economical perspective: Recession. Inflation is way up. Wealth distribution still growing more uneven: 'Classical' middle class is disappearing.

From a non-US/middle European perspective[0]: the US-tipping system is weird[1] to say the least and easily exploitable.

Combine those two and yeah, "service" gets ugly on both sides.

I can understand why so many are upset in their experience about their respective situations (especially in the US) and trying to think about solutions to counter the "exploitation"/"inefficiency" in this new context. But it is also easy to get caught up by the dynamics at the ground exerted by the pressure from above (macroeconomics).

Historically, the issue of "tipping" seems to erupt in times of hard economical/societal challenges. Like US-Prohibition 1919 or my favorite example during German industrialization in the late 19th century:

>More generally, tipping, is a morally fraught issue in the history of hospitality and public education in Germany (more accurately, nationalen Pädagogik, or national pedagogy), going back to the nineteenth century. The jurist Ihering (more commonly referred to as Rudolf von Jhering, with a "J") argued that tipping encourages vices like begging, greed, false or feigned friendship, vanity, and hedonism among service personnel. He wanted service people to be penalized for receiving tips, and employers to pay enough that tipping would not be necessary. The controversy about tipping continues.[2]

Interestingly through this moral/social debate in late 19th century Germany, "tipping"/"Trinkgeld" didn't vanish (intention of Jhering) but people became more aware of the social situation and a balance has arisen out of it.

[0]https://switzerlandtimes.ch/lifestyle/the-impact-of-credit-c...

[1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity

[2]Touwal, Amital: Anthropological Study of Hospitality (2016): The Innkeeper and the Guest, p.70

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#909

Post by DrThunder » Tue, Jan 24, 2023, 2:56 PM UTC

pronlover723 wrote: post #499

DrThunder wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't. For sit down restaurants, or many service oriented jobs it makes for a better customer experience. I agree for counter service it where they want tips BEFORE the service experience it makes no sense. You ought to try sitting down in a restaurant in the EU. They do the bare minimum to serve you. Tying a possible bonus to the way you act in customer service facing role has a lot of benefits. "In addition it ge…

I used to think that. Then I lived in Japan where not only do they not tip, they refuse tips. Haven't seen any issues with the service. So no, tips do not promote a better customer experience.

I feel like this is because Japanese are more culturally inclined to be "nice" and cordial.

I agree it's possible to have a good custom experience without tipping but I do not agree that they don't promote better customer experience. Bonuses, tipping etc. are pretty powerful way of enticing people to be better at their jobs.

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#910

Post by smileysteve » Tue, Jan 24, 2023, 2:58 PM UTC

freetime2 wrote: post #218

adam_arthur wrote: post #6

Given that even retail stores have added tipping prompts to their checkouts, I'd say yes. Plus many restaurants with placeholder tip icons that start at 25%+ You also don't know what the tip is really going towards in many cases. In the classic restaurant/waitstaff case you can reasonably expect it to go to the workers, in the random knick knack or general goods stores ??? Tipping in general is a system to transfer w…

> Given that even retail stores have added tipping prompts to their checkouts Really?! Which retail stores?

Likely not what the op meant, but food trucks and artist markets (square's bread and butter)

A food truck operator is providing no additional service than a McDonald's ignoring the choice of where to drive or park. They provide takeout with no delivery.

And then this started at food halls.

Similarly, for farmers markets, artists, and crafts; these are traditionally retail items, these items often retail on their website or at a gallery (there is an edge case of auction houses), but now there is at least a vendor option of having a tip screen.