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What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

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Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#901
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not those with a disadvantage. It's strictly based on skin color. That's the problem. You have no idea if they are disadvantaged or not. There are plenty of middle-class and upper-class Black families these days. Unless you think that all Black people are disadvantaged. To me, it's a "ruinous empathy" form of racism if you think "Oh look at that poor Black person!" without knowing anything about her background.

Spot on. I wonder if daughters of Barrack Obama will get preferrential treatment as diversity hires. As women of color, they definitely should, according to many companies' policies.

If the children of a president want to work in your company, and they aren't scammers, crazy as a goat, or involved in criminal activity, of course that they should get preferential treatment. Not hiring them would be extremely stupid.

Their network of friends and knowledge of the government is not the kind of things that one can buy with money normally.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#902
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure I know that a lot of the DE&I stuff is frustrating for people. It's also inherently unfair, that's why nobody likes it, I have seen it first hand that it just leads to a few token hires, with no real change. People who actually care realise that if you want to improve something you start at the beginning, not a the outcome, you would at minimum start at education, however I guess it's cheaper to have a few div…

> You can, otherwise we would select leaders by rolling dices, however we don't tend to do that. I would disagree. First of all, just because we think we have ways, doesn't mean that they're good ways, it may be that our ways are the equivalent of rolling dice. I mean hilariously there are all like endemic complaints about interview processes. Why is it that all of a sudden you turn against the criticism and act like…

> just because we think we have ways, doesn't mean that they're good ways

Evolution does work. Assuming people are free to try everything out, usually the strategies that become the norm are the strategies that work better than the other ones. If you know better then the market, you could theoretically go in, make your own company execute your own strategy and start dominating the market, this has been done in history multiple times.

> it may be that our ways are the equivalent of rolling dice

Would you try this out if your own money or health was on the line?

> I mean hilariously there are all like endemic complaints about interview processes.

I have a lot of complaints against democracy, however that does not mean I desire fascism, it means I want a better democracy.

> Why is it that all of a sudden you turn against the criticism and act like our decision making is sacrosanct?

Assuming we want the people who can best perform, we should be looking at ways how to better identify the best performers instead of actively sabotaging the process by adding arbitrary discrimination into it that is proven to work against the goal.

> It's often "trust" and "reputation" and other sticky things like that that make the decision. I seem to hear all sorts of stories of people hiring leaders because "I had a good feeling about him"

Would you give keys to your house to someone you don't trust? Would you give the keys to your car to someone who has a reputation of crashing cars?

Democracy is based on trust as well, you don't know if your favourite politician is actually going to do what they say they are going to do or if it's actually a good idea, yet you are likely going to go with your feelings and cast your vote.

How do you think a CEO would fare if that CEO would not have the respect of their subordinates?

> Among relatively equal candidates I think this is true.

For highly skilled roles, I doubt that this happens often in real life, usually you will have candidates with different qualities and you have to figure out which are the ones you believe to be more valuable.

> You could probably roll the dice among this group, otherwise, maybe you're not that great at training senior managers?

I would probably try to see who would do the job for less, but sure, if that's the case you could also choose at random, however the higher the skill requirement, the less likely you will get into this situation.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#903
post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my assumption is that the left is actually in support for better education in inner cities. i mostly hear about Republicans banning books

Have you also heard of “decolonizing” the libraries?

How frequently does that happen?

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#904
post #382

I work at a different FAANG and it seems like more and more the only news that we get from corporate is related to DEI. Also a lot of hiring details are now hidden from ICs. It used to be that you would be apart of the interview panel as an interviewer and then you would get together with your team afterwards and everyone on the team would vote yes/no and that would pretty much be it. Now it’s made by a manager elsew…

Isn't that the thing though? Being your kids, they already have an advantage. You are their advantage, everything you bring with you, your behavioral habits that will give them a huge head start.

I did not come from a family of engineers. For most of their lives, my parents had to struggle to survive as immigrants, living in a fairly rough area, and making ends meet.

I was lucky enough to go to university for STEM. I saw the huge difference between myself and students who came from families that had even one parent experienced in any sort of engineering (let alone both parents). Not only did they always have someone to consult, but they knew what they were getting into, they were much better prepared, and for the most part, they were building the toolset from their early teens.

It dawned on me that similarly, people coming from very wealthy families are likely to be better prepared to create or at least sustain wealth, in a way that might be completely taken for granted, but is actually the result of years and years of mentoring and picking up on behavioral hints at home.

This is the meaning of inequality. It's literally the family you're born into. Your kids will make it either way way because you have already paved much of the path and can show them the way. For schools and jobs to insist on hiring people who are not born into this circle, is a good thing.

Another thing to mention is that I am far from being a touchy politically correct person. I don't really care about minutiae such as naming your git brach this way or that. But in inclusion I feel I've seen inequality from both sides of the coin. And I definitely support letting more people into the party.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#906

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I truly pay no attention to gender or ethnicity What are your thoughts on implicit bias?

Implicit bias is real and there are ways to mitigate some of it. More process driven interview frameworks, less 'he seem like me so he probably good'.

Define "real". It's definitely measurable in the lab, but the effect sizes aren't very impressive, and the link to real-world outcomes remains quite controversial.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#907

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relatedly: I cannot defend the kind of "diversity" that would rather hire a rich brahmin than an inner-city American kid in need of a leg-up, just to fulfill some backwards skin-color quota. It's obscene, and insulting to all parties involved. I also worry that this nonsense will erode support for the kind of diversity I do defend, or worse, prompt some kind of revanchist backlash against visible minorities in genera…

Nobody is preferring Indians in this diversity game. Will you defend “diversity" that would rather hire a rich inner-city American kid versus a poor brahmin in need of a leg-up?

In academic admissions, you're probably right. In tech hiring, I have seen it firsthand, on multiple occasions.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#908
post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but here we're talking about Microsoft, one of the most valuable/profitable companies on the planet. Microsoft doesn't have to make do with a crappy pipeline. In fact, they have the resources to make it harder for the rest of us to have good pipelines. And again -- I am talking about process smells. Women, Latinos, Black people, etc. are gainfully employed in roles where they ship software. (If you work in tec…

1. Microsoft salaries are on the lower end compared to other FAANGs, this is well known fact. 2. Higher paying firms like goog fb are able to sweep the labor market and get the most of folks from tiny population of well qualified minority candidates. Making pipeline issues worse for everybody else. 3. At this point if you are minority and is qualified - you have no problem getting top tier job and top tier pay relati…

Quick thoughts:

1) You are correct, but this does not speak to the need for Microsoft to have sub-optimal processes in any aspect of its business.

Separately, all of the big tech companies including Microsoft pay significantly more than typical employers in places where there are no big tech offices (this is most of the country).

2) This is just incorrect. Those firms cannot sweep the labor market because their US cultures have historically been so dependent on face-time. Microsoft is able to hire engineers in Atlanta in part because Facebook and Google have yet to put down significant engineering presences here, for example. Most medium-to-large US cities do not have significant FAANMG presence and so are also ripe for picking. This is why e.g. Target is able to get great talent in Minneapolis.

3) This is a claim that is difficult to evaluate given that engineering has had essentially full employment for going on 20 years.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#909
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evidence that one is going to be consistently chosen?

While I do think GP is correct at many places, my team literally hired a black woman from Georgia and turned down a white dude from Boston, lol. I am not a fan of the overbearing top down policies like Microsoft is talking about, but I have become friendly with aforementioned hire, and some of the stories of discrimination and just people being really rude to her in the professional world are mind blowing to me. I ca…

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Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#910

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article states that it’s spread over 20 states, which I think is an important caveat to note. Not that it isn’t still a large sum of money, but that it’s a far smaller sum in any given location. Especially important to note because my original comment was in reply to someone claiming that cities had burned to the ground. It’s an overstated claim that functions as a dog whistle.

Minnesota burned to the ground which is easy to find with any non-bias searching.

…the entire state? Come on.
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