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Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

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Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#901
post #70

While the result is a big relief, I think it's not as decisive as I'm noticing some headlines (and commenters) are claiming. One of the big open questions is "are APIs copyrightable?" The court skirted that question, and instead focused on whether it was fair use: > To decide no more than is necessary to resolve this case, the Court assumes for argument’s sake that the copied lines can be copyrighted, and focuses on…

Exactly. Coming from law, sometimes like in this case, some topics can be left undecided, if it does not change the result. Even if the code could have been copyrighted, it would still be considered fair use.

Translated into developers speech: this is some sort of early return. ;)

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#902
post #795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, Netscape got bought out by AOL, but not before it spun off Mozilla. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netscape It may be hard to believe, but the first iteration of Internet Explorer on Macintosh (back on System 8) was __solid__. IE, at least on PowerMacs, was way faster and more reliable than either NCSA Mosaic or Navigator.

Hell, AOL still runs Netscape as a discount ISP, same logo since 1999 and everything: https://isp.netscape.com

God that's a beautiful website. Loads fast. Not too many graphics. Nothing moves unless I tell it to.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#903

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At that point(1989), the future was less clear-cut than Windows vs OS2. Windows was more a graphical shell for DOS than a real OS, and there were other graphical shells for DOS. From the top of my head: I vaguely remember GEM, I have used one from Tandy. There was something else installed on our school computers, Dynamic Environment or something . Windows before 3.0 (1990) was inferior to a lot of these DOS shells. I…

You may be thinking of DesqView? It provided some level of virtualisation and multi-tasking, if you had a competent-enough CPU. Eventually, there was also DesqView/X which allowed you to export DOS and DesqView-aware applications over X11, which was actually kind of cool.

I completely forgot about DesqView. Never used it of saw it, but yes, that was another well-known one.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#904
Why would Google do this in the first place? The reason is that they did not have time to figure out what capabilities might be needed in their own solution. So copy the API from someone's other competing product and then later, put code behind those API calls. Is it theft or cheating? Kind of, I suppose. It saved them time from having to engineer the API surface.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#905

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netscape was not selling their browser so that did not matter. I worked at a startup that used their server. We wanted to pay for it but they would not invoice us. Just sending money without an invoice would have been a donation. I sat for hours on their customer support line trying to get an invoice but they never sent one until they went out of business.

They absolutely did sell their browser to enterprises. It was only free for personal use.

I think that’s what cloudwizard is saying. They knew that Netscape cost money for professional use, but in trying to get an invoice to actually pay for it, Netscape did nothing.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#906
post #869
post #864

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the court be obliged to reason front to back? Surely this is no different from e.g. "the defendant had adequate grounds for killing in self-defence, so there is no need to examine whether they intended to kill the victim".

This is more like deciding whether there was a murder to begin with before deciding it was self-defense. The thing is that fair use implies the underlying data was copyrighted, but something being copyrighted doesn't imply fair use, which is why I think your analysis is backwards.

> The thing is that fair use implies the underlying data was copyrighted, but something being copyrighted doesn't imply fair use, which is why I think your analysis is backwards.

For those who may not understand: in the US, fair use is a defense, not a right. By arguing that your usage was fair use, you are admitting to copyright infringement. Just that your infringement was fair use. The analogy above to self defense is a good one; By arguing your killing was self defense, you are admitting that you killed somebody, but that it was justified.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#907
post #647
post #70

While the result is a big relief, I think it's not as decisive as I'm noticing some headlines (and commenters) are claiming. One of the big open questions is "are APIs copyrightable?" The court skirted that question, and instead focused on whether it was fair use: > To decide no more than is necessary to resolve this case, the Court assumes for argument’s sake that the copied lines can be copyrighted, and focuses on…

While the result is a big relief, I think it's not as decisive as I'm noticing some headlines (and commenters) are claiming. It is even less decisive than you're saying. The fact that the Supreme Court decided not to overturn the decision of the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit that APIs are copyrightable means that binding precedent on every court except the Supreme is that they are. And for fair use, one of…

DOS also copied APIs from CP/M (though that was before Microsoft bought it I assume)

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#908

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, when the code allows an exploit, that's a bug. Thomas is supposed to help us understand the intent of the code - what the Requirement was. Yes, it's better for us if the code reflects the intent perfectly. But to the degree that's not possible, we need someone to Interpret the code. Textualists are trying to ignore the fact that there's a difference between intent and implementation. The Legislature should do a f…

Tangent, but you said something I find really telling, in conjunction with OP's post. Textualism to its proponents is very much like exploiting a system; figuring out the exact rules it defines and finding workarounds. It may not even be to a person's own goals (hence the individual not feeling biased when thinking this way), but is enjoyable in its own right in finding those loopholes (like the meme of the referee a…

> At least at the Supreme Court level, whether a justice professes textualism, purposivism, intentionalism, or pastafarianism as a method of statutory interpretation is likely to play less of a role in his or her decisions than ideological druthers. None of these approaches or any other is close to fully determinate, giving a good deal of room for a judge's values to play a major role. Moreover, even when a methodology appears to point reasonably clearly towards a result, judges sometimes disregard their methodological commitments in favor of their ideological ones.

http://www.dorfonlaw.org/2016/06/does-textualism-have-bias.h...

Here's Richard Posner on Scalia:

> Does an ordinance that says that “no person may bring a vehicle into the park” apply to an ambulance that enters the park to save a person’s life? For Scalia and Garner, the answer is yes. After all, an ambulance is a vehicle—any dictionary will tell you that. If the authors of the ordinance wanted to make an exception for ambulances, they should have said so. And perverse results are a small price to pay for the objectivity that textual originalism offers (new dictionaries for new texts, old dictionaries for old ones). But Scalia and Garner later retreat in the ambulance case, and their retreat is consistent with a pattern of equivocation exhibited throughout their book.

> One senses a certain defensiveness in Justice Scalia’s advocacy of a textualism so rigid as to make the ambulance driver a lawbreaker. He is one of the most politically conservative Supreme Court justices of the modern era and the intellectual leader of the conservative justices on the Supreme Court. Yet the book claims that his judicial votes are generated by an “objective” interpretive methodology, and that, since it is objective, ideology plays no role. It is true, as Scalia and Garner say, that statutory text is not inherently liberal or inherently conservative; it can be either, depending on who wrote it. Their premise is correct, but their conclusion does not follow: text as such may be politically neutral, but textualism is conservative.

https://newrepublic.com/article/106441/scalia-garner-reading...

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#909

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netscape went out of business because their browser crashed far more frequently than Explorer. I've heard all the sob stories, but I was sick of the constant crashing of Netscape, and so tried Explorer. Explorer crashed too, but not nearly as often.

FWIW, Netscape got bought out by AOL, but not before it spun off Mozilla. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netscape It may be hard to believe, but the first iteration of Internet Explorer on Macintosh (back on System 8) was __solid__. IE, at least on PowerMacs, was way faster and more reliable than either NCSA Mosaic or Navigator.

> Netscape got bought out by AOL

That makes it sound like Netscape had no say in the matter. Netscape sold itself to AOL.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#910
post #869

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is more like deciding whether there was a murder to begin with before deciding it was self-defense. The thing is that fair use implies the underlying data was copyrighted, but something being copyrighted doesn't imply fair use, which is why I think your analysis is backwards.

> The thing is that fair use implies the underlying data was copyrighted, but something being copyrighted doesn't imply fair use, which is why I think your analysis is backwards. For those who may not understand: in the US, fair use is a defense , not a right. By arguing that your usage was fair use, you are admitting to copyright infringement. Just that your infringement was fair use. The analogy above to self defen…

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