The need for motivating belief structures, community, ethical guidance, and so on aren't going anywhere.
At the same time we see the rise in tribal hyperpartisanship where the political ideology functions much like a religion.
Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time
901–910 of 1001 posts
Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time
#902Earlier quoted context omitted.
In that quote, Wallace is just morphing, conflating, and fudging the definition of the word "worship". He says people "worship" (with a variety of subtly different meanings) a variety of things and then, implies that because we can use the same word, "worship", to describe those activities, they are equivalent. I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless.
> I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless. It is etymologically correct though: condition of being worthy, dignity, glory, distinction, honor, renown. * https://www.etymonline.com/word/worship From the root worth "worth": weorþ "significant, valuable, of value; valued, appreciated, highly thought-of, deserving, meriting; honorable, noble, of high rank . * ht…
the quality and calibre of this comment is what brings me to HN everyday..
Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time
#903Earlier quoted context omitted.
In that quote, Wallace is just morphing, conflating, and fudging the definition of the word "worship". He says people "worship" (with a variety of subtly different meanings) a variety of things and then, implies that because we can use the same word, "worship", to describe those activities, they are equivalent. I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless.
Most things people say that try to conflate atheism with theism are insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless
It is not conflating. It is essentially giving advice for how to live, which is that meaning and identity and focus should not be on something material since those can and likely will be lost. Wallace even mentioned the Four Noble Truths as an option, which is not even part of a theistic worldview in many interpretations.
This is the same advice that most who study mental health would give.
Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time
#904Earlier quoted context omitted.
In that quote, Wallace is just morphing, conflating, and fudging the definition of the word "worship". He says people "worship" (with a variety of subtly different meanings) a variety of things and then, implies that because we can use the same word, "worship", to describe those activities, they are equivalent. I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless.
> I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless. It is etymologically correct though: condition of being worthy, dignity, glory, distinction, honor, renown. * https://www.etymonline.com/word/worship From the root worth "worth": weorþ "significant, valuable, of value; valued, appreciated, highly thought-of, deserving, meriting; honorable, noble, of high rank . * ht…
Concepts shouldn't be dependent on the language they're conveyed in, though. Try translating the passage to a language without the word "worship", or with 100 sub-distinctions, or introduce a concept like "zen" and his point falls apart.
He also introduces a false dichotomy which equates "worship" with "theism". If I "worship" money or sex, no one would seriously say that makes me a "theist". So even if we accept his warped use of the term "worship", his claim that atheism doesn't exist still doesn't hold up.
Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time
#905Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was raised Roman Catholic and attended Catholic schools until college. When I was in high school I recall having serious issues with what they were teaching. Here's a few of the gems they left me with: 1. You should only get married if you intended on having children. 2. If you were unable to have children, the marriage should be annulled. 3. Homosexuality was abhorrent and sinful. 4. Women should not obtain positi…
> If you were unable to have children, the marriage should be annulled. This depends on a lot of things. If two people get married, and one of them already knows that they are sterile or for whatever reason cannot have children, but they don't reveal that to the other until after they are married, that is grounds for the other person to seek an annulment. This is not the same thing as saying that the marriage "should…
No, this was "if you can not conceive children you should be single." It wasn't about being hiding things from your spouse or anything like that.
Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time
#906As a believer and someone who attends church regularly, this is sad but not unexpected. From my own personal experience - if the church cannot answer questions clearly, their members will look for answers somewhere else. A lot of churches unfortunately are so elementary in their teaching or turn to "feel good preaching" (see Elevation Church). The longterm effect is that a person ends up being tired of getting the sa…
I grew up attending church, and on the whole have nothing but good things to say about the whole experience. It gave me both spiritual and moral support when I needed it the most and some of the best people I have ever known, I got to know through church. In fact in ways I mourn the loss of both my faith and my 'church'. However once I realized that, on a very fundamental level, the core of what they where claiming a…
I'll agree with you that I find their reasoning faulty (I did), but what I dislike about my atheism is that I get lumped in with people who'll tell theists that "they're wrong"
To my mind, most of the planet's population have got to the 'right place' (show love and compassion to those you meet) - and how we all got to this same place is immaterial.
I'm without a doubt an atheist to my core - but doesn't stop me admiring those with faith who use it to lead a good life.
Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time
#907“Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship—be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble…
Make me think of the stephen colbert christmas special
https://vimeo.com/57953108
" Then you got your nothing. Some folks believe in nothing. But if you believe in nothing, then what's to keep the nothing from coming for you?
... Call me silly Call me sappy Call me many things the first of which is happy
You doubt, but you're sad. I don't, but I'm glad. I guess we're even. At least that's what I believe in And there are much worse things
- Written by Adam Schlesinger (RIP)
Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time
#908For comparison, UK church membership is Numbers for those claiming to be of "No religion" range from from 50 to 60% depending on region. 38% don't believe in God or any higher spiritual power. The interesting thing is people will identify as Christian on the census while also not claiming to subscribe to any particular religion in other surveys. 2021 census (just completed this month) results will be interesting http…
Growing up in the 80's (UK) as a Roman Catholic, I remember the services being full on Sunday mornings. Not been since I left home at 18, because frankly I stopped believing in God the same time I stopped believing in Father Christmas (7?). The only reason I went was to make my parents happy. Now I'm in my 40's I do wonder if the lack of religion in society is leading us to a bad place. We know from numerous studies…
> I do wonder if the lack of religion in society is leading us to a bad place
With respect, this is a popular right-wing talking point that has been repeated since the 1970s whenever the US is on the precipice of making real progress in terms of equity and rights.
I'm surprised to see this claim here, as I would have thought the previous four years of the Trump admin, and the disastrous influence of evangelicals on policy making and governance, would have prevented anyone from even bringing it up again.
More recent research indicates that when a society is under immense social pressure and internal conflict, and fails to provide for its citizens, religious adherence tends to increase. However, in peaceful societies where the citizens have access to a wide range of services, religious participation drops considerably.
There's a lot more to this than I'm summarizing, but the data is clear: nonreligious societies are wealthier, happier, and more peaceful.
In the US, the most red, religious states have some of the highest poverty in the developed world. This isn't a coincidence. Religion tends to diminish when good governance provides for its people.
And most tellingly, what did we see happening in the US during the last four years of the previous Trump admin? The rise of Christian nationalism, often aggressive and violent in nature, and the loss of basic governance and services for most Americans.
Source: Ed Diener, Louis Tay, David G. Myers. The religion paradox: If religion makes people happy, why are so many dropping out? Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 2011 https://doi.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fa0024402
Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time
#909Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless. It is etymologically correct though: condition of being worthy, dignity, glory, distinction, honor, renown. * https://www.etymonline.com/word/worship From the root worth "worth": weorþ "significant, valuable, of value; valued, appreciated, highly thought-of, deserving, meriting; honorable, noble, of high rank . * ht…
Concepts shouldn't be dependent on the language they're conveyed in, though. Try translating the passage to a language without the word "worship", or with 100 sub-distinctions, or introduce a concept like "zen" and his point falls apart. He also introduces a false dichotomy which equates "worship" with "theism". If I "worship" money or sex, no one would seriously say that makes me a "theist". So even if we accept his…
> If I “worship” money or sex, no one would seriously say that makes me a “theist”.
The Greeks had a god of wealth that they worshipped, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutus. Furthermore, there is an entire page of sex/fertility deities on Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_love_and_lust_deities.
Maybe you are conflating theism with monotheism.
Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time
#910Serious question, how does anyone reconcile the fact that if there's a God, he's a total narcissist? How can a perfect all-father creator be such a narcissist wouldn't that be the opposite of what you'd imagine a god-figure to be?
Worship me, come to me, I'm the one and only, no other gods but me... everything happens because of me... worship me or else you'll go to hell.
All things I swear a cult leader or Donald Trump or any other narcissist in history would say to their followers and they'd eat it up because they just want someone to tell them how to get through life.