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Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

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Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#901

Post by ashtonkem »

joering2 wrote: post #829
ashtonkem wrote: post #823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That would be a crappy democracy if it could be eroded by a bunch of idiots taking an unauthorized Whitehouse tour. A crappy tour of Congress during a key transition of power, where they intended to kill the VP and whoever had displeased them. After action reports are indicating that they got within 60s and 90 feet of the VP, and we're not even done hearing the story of that day. Coup attempts are always humorous u…

Interesting though from a friend of mine who teaches US Constitution: if number two and three (Pence and Pelosi) were killed, the full and complete power lays in number one - the President. By the time consitutional lawyers and politicans were to be done arguying it otherwise thru regular channles - we would have a full blown Monarchy installed in this country, and completely lawfully should I add. I think majority o…

The president cannot install a full blown monarchy under the powers vested by him in the constitution. Neither can congress.

The issue though is in the case where Trump is installed in a second term after members of congress are kidnapped, extorted, or even executed, then the question of what is and is not constitutional becomes moot. The application of force in the political process has a tendency to degrade all guard rails, leaving behind nothing but “largest army diplomacy”, or mob in this case.

To whit: “stop quoting laws to those of us with swords”.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#902

Post by Ajedi32 »

ghoward wrote: post #17
lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

I wrote about why free speech is still important here: https://gavinhoward.com/2019/11/recommendations-and-radicali... . Basically, the problem is not free speech. It's the social media drive for addiction.

> echo chambers, are the very epitome of lack of free speech [...] since members of echo chambers only hear one argument, echo chambers are radicalizing, and they are radicalizing because they don’t have free speech

Thanks, that's actually a really insightful way of looking at the problem.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#903

Post by HALtheWise »

lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

Keep in mind that the costs associated with free speech are currently visible and obvious, but (precisely because we have free speech) the costs of censorship are not. It is true that a free society will have more protests and unrest, sometimes violently, but that doesn't change the promise that a free country is less likely to have a multi-year civil war or government led genocide in a decade. Given that four people died at the Capitol and millions typically die in wars, that's a trade-off I'm willing to make. The argument for free speech typically doesn't claim it's better than an optimal world where only truthful and productive speech is possible, just that it's better than what you _actually get_ in practice if you attempt to only allow truthful speech, which is handing unchecked power to the people making that judgement.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#904

Post by AshWolfy »

stale2002 wrote: post #700
AshWolfy wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe Ted Wheeler shouldnt have gassed peaceful protesters, passing drivers, and literally just entire neighborhoods

You are given a justification for "insurrection" activities. The other person was merely saying that such "insurrection" activities happened. If you want to agree that they happened, but you simply think they were justified, well you are not disagreeing with the original statement.

I mean aside from exaggerating, yes riots did happen in portland.

My point was to point out the absurdity of comparing a riot after months of gassings of protestors and innocent civilians and all that happened was some property damage, versus where the police treated the rioters with kid gloves and they still beat a cop to death

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#905

Post by jariel »

dragonwriter wrote: post #774
jariel wrote: post #737

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If a President shall not have been chosen before ..." "If, by reason of death, resignation, removal from office, inability, or failure to qualify ...” So Biden will not have been 'chosen' or did not 'qualify' ? If the Jan 6 vote did not happen or if the results were not approved - Joe Biden was still unambiguously 'chosen' by in a free and fair election by all accounts? Would the factual legitimacy of his election r…

> If the Jan 6 vote did not happen or if the results were not approved - Joe Biden was still unambiguously 'chosen' by in a free and fair election by all accounts? The only account that has any force under the Constitution is the one made by Congress of the electoral votes cast by the States. That's why it was the target of the insurrection; if that could be manipulated, whether by giving courage to secret allies who…

Ok, well it seems you have a lot of faith in the clarity of some of those Constitutional scenarios, which I guess is good.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#906

Post by DataWorker »

inglor_cz wrote: post #865
babesh wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is why you need an educated populace. By educated, we mean one that can think critically and independently rather than a college credential.

Germany in the early 1930s was one of the best, most rigorously educated nations in the world. It was also crushed by weight of enormous economic crisis. Smart people pushed to the wall will be more dangerous than stupid(ish) people who have something to lose.

It’s almost as if education is a proxy for being a social conformist. But people still think school cures groupthink. It does the opposite by definition.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#907

Post by jariel »

jimz wrote: post #813
jariel wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Threats of violence' 'Threats of coordinated violence' 'Satire with violence' Are all part of a type of information wherein we can make rules and try to apply them fairly. Saying 'Twitter allowed this but not that' is besides the point - it illustrates that Twitter is either inconsistent or hypocritical or both ... but it doesn't abnegate the notion that policies can be crudely made to work. If you straight up threa…

The difference between a lie and a mere falsehood or even a mistake is intent and knowledge. The legal system is perfectly capable of determining intent and knowledge (when including not just actual but cases where knowledge was recklessly disregarded). We also already have laws that in certain contexts outlaw such lying. The most common examples are perjury and lying to officials either FBI or immigration, the latte…

To your first para:

Lying, in the context of FB posts etc. is not illegal, so

To your second post:

Companies have no incentive to honour your rights, and as a side note, they will pursue their personal, petty squabbles to their own ends.

Google, FB and Apple systematically have leaders who prefer 'one side of the political aisle' and could easy tilt the scales in that direction.

This is an abomination really wen can't allow that.

I think we probably need some decent legislation.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#908

Post by spaginal »

robin21 wrote: post #856
spaginal wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of free speech necessitates an over abundance of control, misinformation, lies, and overt propaganda in order to quell any free thought that would push people to ask questions openly. That is the distinct irony of people saying we must control free speech, thought, and information, in order to prevent misinformation from compelling people to violence or what have you. It doesn’t work that way, and it’s openly pr…

I think free speech is a very difficult pill to swallow when it's not convenient for your own agenda. As soon as one side makes an exception then the other side can, all the way to full censorship of each other's opposing sides. This is fascinating to observe in political chat rooms and message boards where anyone submitting a dissenting opinion is called a spy or troll and will be banned until there are no dissenter…

It is a difficult pill to swallow because convincing someone they are going down the wrong path where free speech reigns requires nuance, knowledge of subject, listening, empathy, and tact. All things people are too lazy to do now, especially politicians, teachers, media, and media gatekeepers, who are the worst offenders of this, and simply wish to drive eyeballs, create a monopoly for their crappy ideas, and rile up their bases. Simply banning something never actually makes it go away, especially ideas.

It’s easier to declare them as an enemy of the state, communists, nazi’s, right wing, left wing, formenting insurrection, compelling violence, or whatever other set of buzzwords that sound dangerous enough and catchy.

Then you feel morally justified in silencing them, although you really haven’t silenced them, now they simply go into the dark recesses of society and simmer for years or decades, sometimes a generation or two, until it spills out in actually violent and chaotic ways.

I just wish people would actually sit down and talk again in real life. I wish online forums would stop driving engagement with votes and likes, and would stop downvoting and silencing for actual opinion or thought and drove real healthy engagement that cut this sort of behavior off at the knees.

I feel like a dinosaur at this point watching the comet come in.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#909

Post by vel0city »

smsm42 wrote: post #851
vel0city wrote: post #726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably more like stab them with the spear he was carrying, or probably some of the people who were carrying guns, or potentially the noose hanging outside. Gaddafi wasn't shot with a gun. He still seemed to die when a crowd of people who hated him got a hold of him. A cop was beaten to death in front of the Capitol. You don't need a gun to commit violence. And that's what the point of this was. Terrorism to push mo…

Yeah I imagine the headline in the New York Times next morning - "Horned Viking Guy stabs 435 members of Congress with a spear and crowns himself King of the United States. All Hail our new King!". > or probably some of the people who were carrying guns, or potentially the noose hanging outside Or you just inventing this whole thing out of thin cloth. Because the only shooting was done by very much armed - with handg…

Well, I imagine he wouldn't have stabbed 435 of them as over one hundred were doing exactly what he wanted -- not certifying the election. And you're right, murdering a few members of Congress isn't likely to just completely overturn the government. It'll certainly continue to destabilize things though, I don't think I'll have to try and explain why murdering members of Congress while they move to certify an election would be destabilizing to political processes but maybe I will judging by how this conversation is going.

I'm also not inventing the whole thing out of thin cloth. People were arrested with caches of firearms near the Capitol. There is video evidence of gallows being constructed out front. You're ignoring reality to suggest these things never happened. These aren't fake reports, these are some of the few indictments which have so far been unsealed. I don't watch cable news, I don't get all my news from blogs. I read court documents. I read actual statistics. Go read the real, raw data.

As for the cop, it seems like you'd also argue car accidents don't kill people its the internal hemorrhaging that happens from completely unknown causes. Clearly the people beating the cop didn't intend to cause him harm, that's just how they say hello! You seriously think the protesters beating him with metal pipes didn't intend to cause him harm and potentially kill him? Do you go around being friendly and start hitting people in the head with metal pipes?

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#910

Post by sgregnt »

lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

Having free speech is bad, but not having it is even worse. Limiting free speech is a slippery slope once you start it hard to stop it. Suppose what could have happened if there were no free speach but bad actors in the government or in big corporations?
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