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A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#901
post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

> This is because those unions are serving a very different purpose to the stereotypical union some engineers seem to fear. [...] I think there's another purpose of the film industry unions that doesn't get mentioned much in these (tech industry) discussions. Specifically, that the film unions raise wages by limiting the number of people who enter the industry. It's simple supply and demand. This works via the follow…

I would add - finally, the nature of the film industry is to work on a contract project basis, with individual funding rounds rather than being a "regular" employee. Thats why the union benefits in terms of health insurance is so important.

So imagine a union of software contractors - that union would have no power because anyone wanting to use a contractor could sidestep them immediately by hiring a non-union contractor of which there are many.

How it could work is this - imagine you took the top 20 researchers in machine learning and they unionized, and refused to work except under a contract negotiated by the union. If Google wants "that guy" then they have to use that union contract. "That guy" has power, because people want to hire them. That can form an umbrella under which other ML researchers can sign up. Suddenly you can't effectively do ML without working with the union.

Companies with people like that keep those people under extremely lucrative contracts so its unlikely they would be financially motivated to form such a union. There's also the factor that "what even is the top-20 researchers". In movies you know if you have Brad Pitt or not. But you 100% need as many top people as possible to somehow become union-minded. I'd hope that this group of Google workers grows quickly. Its great that they've voted to form.

Note of course I'm just spitballing here and am not at all an expert in labor relations or how unions really form or work. Maybe it didn't go like that. Here's an interesting article thats paywalled, but it at least describes an early unionization and then a big back and forth struggle. It would behoove us all to understand how the labor movement of the 1890s to 1960s came about, because it would appear we are just about to enter such a period.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3815030?seq=1

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#902
What percentage of Alphabet employees work on profitable products? Since AWU has no contract with Alphabet, their only leverage is work stoppage but if those protesting aren't adding monetary value to the business, then wouldn't work stoppage be net-neutral or positive for Alphabet?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#903
post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

>When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions Because everyone talking about unionization refuses to get into the nitty gritty of what I might gain, what I might lose, and the structural changes to the workplaces that are inherent with unionization. And if/when I/others start spitballing about what those might be we're treated like dolts uneducated on organized labor, and should just…

> "everyone talking about unionization refuses to get into the nitty gritty of what I might gain, what I might lose,"

Do you support dictatorships or monarchies on the grounds that democracy enthusiasts cannot tell you exactly what the populace will vote for?

To use your phrasing, where in the fuck is the actual case study about the structure of the status quo's constraints, influences and incentives?

Apart from the lobbying, the quiet silencing of health and safety and maybe ethics violations, the de-facto expected longer hours and 24x7 on-call, the decades of open-secret poor working conditions in the gaming industry, the constant complaints of tech worker burnout, tech often being considered a cost center and reporting to MBAs and CFOs and not getting a board level representation that reflects the value tech creates, the use of stack ranking that doesn't get applied to sales / management teams, the standard advice that the only way to get a significant salary increase is to change jobs, the often poor or misaligned or unreachable incentives and targets, the situation where a company paying more in perks instead of money is considered good, and etc.

You didn't demand a study before agreeing the current approach is good, did you?

> "Don't tell me I want a union contract, tell me what the terms of the contract will be"

Exactly what people negotiate for will be a representation of what isn't being taken seriously in any specific workplace. "Divide and conquer" - one employer with tens of millions of dollars and a team of lawyers united on one side and every individual employee divided with a fraction of a lawyer and a small amount of money on the other side. How can this ever result in great things for the employee side?

Unless you're the 1% with your pick of FAANG jobs and high 6-figure salaries, in which case you're the exception everyone else should ignore because we aren't you and a system where only the 1% can get desirable working conditions for most of their life, and everyone else deserves to suffer for not being good enough, is a bad system.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#904
My overall perspective on this whole discourse is that we spend a lot of time attaching a particular union, amongst a particular group of well-paid workers; to titanic struggles amongst Class and Culture.

My personal opinion is that yes, inequality is a huge problem! Solutions which come to mind are Medicare for All, UBI, free public college, and an end to Homelessness; all paid for by higher income taxes on the top 10% (we can start with ending the absurd FICA cap, and then raise rates).

It's not at all obvious to me how coders at an Ad company putting an intermediary between themselves and an employer changes... anything. I get that Unions were THE answer in the past - The Jungle and all that. But it's a different world and I just... don't get it!

(Just to add - some of the "pro capital" comments are just as silly. I don't think Unions will ruin the world, I think they're just sort of 'fine' and super tangential to more important policy topics)

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#905
post #768
post #764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boeing has software engineer unions. They start at like, ~$70k and after a few years can get up to ~$90k (someone correct me if I'm off, but I don't think I'm very far off).

So like half what Google pays? How much does their Union take?

More like 20%.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#906
post #900

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not join now and help steer the union away from that future?

Because I don't want to be politically involved in steering the future of yet anther organization. I want to program. I have enough trouble staying informed enough to steer the futures of my state and federal governments.

I can basically guarantee that you will have both an easier time and a more rewarding outcome getting involved in a members union of like 250 people than with a state or federal government in the US

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#907

Before US-based workers jump on this and start talking about how unions are a bad thing in general, remember to look to Europe. Trade unions are a huge part of the workforce culture here and are mostly a force for good.

This isn't a trade union. It barely qualifies as a union at all.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#908
post #900

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I don't want to be politically involved in steering the future of yet anther organization. I want to program. I have enough trouble staying informed enough to steer the futures of my state and federal governments.

I can basically guarantee that you will have both an easier time and a more rewarding outcome getting involved in a members union of like 250 people than with a state or federal government in the US

Yes but I don't feel a union is necessary in my case. I am happy with my wages, benefits, and working conditions. If not I'll vote with my feet, no union necessary.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#910
post #899

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are all real problems, especially in a lot of today's older unions that have been completely hollowed out and have become a kind of do-nothing "labor aristocracy." They don't function as democratic institutions serving laborers' interests anymore, only their own narrow, elite, institutional needs--often institutional self-preservation at the expense of their members' interests. They're decrepit, corrupt dinosau…

> I still want better working conditions though, for me and for everybody. What do you suggest? Well, a re-brand for one. Don't call it a "union". Call it something else if it is something else. If you make a union patterned after traditional ones, why shouldn't it become a corrupt entity 50 years later just like all the current corrupt unions?

I'm very pro-labor/pro-worker, whatever you want to call it, and I'd be all about using a different term than union. It's a loaded term that has all sorts of negative connotation. New decade, new world of tech, new term for collectivized labor. I will admit, the police union problem is a hard counter. It's a solvable problem though, I think.

Maybe we should bring "guild" back into fashion.

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