California Approves Statewide Rent Control • Hacker News Board

Re: California Approves Statewide Rent Control

#901

Post by munk-a » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 4:53 PM UTC

baby wrote: post #139

munk-a wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, to clarify... Are you saying that because we have public transit no one can own cars anymore? The generous way to read the post above is an arrangement where property ownership can be both public and private - possibly where rental units are majority state owned and private ownership is more concentrated in actual residents.

I think everyone can agree that the private car culture destroyed any hope for good public transport in the US.

I grew up in Boston and it actually had a wonderful public transit system - assuming you're a comfortable in the city and not fearful of who you'll bump into on the bus.

Re: California Approves Statewide Rent Control

#902

Post by rudolph9 » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 4:55 PM UTC

In Oregon rent control was applied in a very targeted way to encourage new building such as exemption for the first fifteen years after a building is constructed and rezoning of a massive number of lots to allow multi tenet housing.

Did the California laws include anything to encourage additional housing to be built?

Re: California Approves Statewide Rent Control

#903

Post by scarlac » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 4:57 PM UTC

thorwasdfasdf wrote: post #891

This is a disaster. Have we learned nothing at all? Rent control won't help anyone except those who already have a low rent place and it'll only help for the short term until they need to move. After 50 years of ridiculous regulations that prevent more housing from being added, we're still moving in the wrong direction. This is truely a sad day.

It's not ideal and no silver bullet, but having rents go up means "normal" people living in places for years get pushed out of the city and land lords get richer, faster. It seems to address that issue, which is not all bad on the surface.

It's not the perfect solution, but what do you propose as something better that still helps normal people not get pushed out?

Re: California Approves Statewide Rent Control

#904

Post by vproman » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

rudolph9 wrote: post #902

In Oregon rent control was applied in a very targeted way to encourage new building such as exemption for the first fifteen years after a building is constructed and rezoning of a massive number of lots to allow multi tenet housing. Did the California laws include anything to encourage additional housing to be built?

AB 1482 also only applies to properties over 15 years old.

Re: California Approves Statewide Rent Control

#905

Post by rudolph9 » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

bhauer wrote: post #21

I am a landlord in Oregon, but not California. The curious, although ultimately predictable, outcome of the new rent control measure in Oregon is that while I have historically had an arrangement with my property management to be restrained in annual rent increases, they are now advising a default annual increase of the maximum allowed (7 percent before inflation). This is because larger adjustments cannot be made if…

I don’t know if this a direct result of the laws passed but prices definitely seem to have dropped from last year to this year (don’t have numbers, just perception of someone living here)

Re: California Approves Statewide Rent Control

#906

Post by Romanulus » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 5:01 PM UTC

xvector wrote: post #802

Romanulus wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like a really clumsy way of pretending to be in a free market.

Few markets are really free, and that’s a good thing. Free markets tend to be very ugly in reality.

You're right. Tight nationalistic control of all markets is the only rational way to ensure sanity.

Re: California Approves Statewide Rent Control

#907

Post by rconti » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 5:03 PM UTC

scarlac wrote: post #903

thorwasdfasdf wrote: post #891

This is a disaster. Have we learned nothing at all? Rent control won't help anyone except those who already have a low rent place and it'll only help for the short term until they need to move. After 50 years of ridiculous regulations that prevent more housing from being added, we're still moving in the wrong direction. This is truely a sad day.

It's not ideal and no silver bullet, but having rents go up means "normal" people living in places for years get pushed out of the city and land lords get richer, faster. It seems to address that issue, which is not all bad on the surface. It's not the perfect solution, but what do you propose as something better that still helps normal people not get pushed out?

I don't have a perfect solution, either, but I see unintended consequence from this:

* Fewer rentals on the market

* More instances of landlords "re-occupying" a place (eg, ACTUALLY kicking out the residents) in order to fix it up (or not) and then re-rent to someone else at a much higher base rent, later.

When rents go up, tenants push themselves out (or, the market pushes them out). When we devise tenant protection laws, we invent 'better' landlords who find clever ways to PUSH out people who are paying below market.

If there was a way to artificially hold ALL rents down, it might be less obvious -- but under a rent control scheme, everyone knows when you're paying below market; you look at the classified ads (okay, craigslist) and see that you could never afford to find a 'new' place like yours at the same price. The tenants know it, the landlords know it. The tenants have protection. For awhile. Until they don't.

Re: California Approves Statewide Rent Control

#908

Post by busterarm » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 5:06 PM UTC

heyoni wrote: post #887

busterarm wrote: post #877

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the sarcasm missed you completely. I didn't care about your specific opinion on rent control because you didn't express one, I'm saying that your comments to give counter-evidence to what I was saying didn't even have any context in the discussion and will be used as fuel for the anti-regulation people that I said don't know what they're talking about. You basically injected a non-sequitur into the discussion…

/edit never mind, I get it. I actually think you're taking this a little too close to heart. I may be guilty of having missed your sarcasm, but I was addressing a point you inadvertently made. That's not the same as looking for a fight.

Hey no worries. Sorry, I do take this very close to heart as I grew up extremely poor and I owe a lot to the fact that I had rent control growing up. This is a pretty inflammatory topic on HN in general and I have a long history of being flamed into oblivion every time it comes up.

Lotta contempt for the poor on here, but this thread has actually been a rare exception. Might be the only set of posts that don't have 30 downvotes attached to them.

Re: California Approves Statewide Rent Control

#909

Post by BurningFrog » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 5:07 PM UTC

quickthrower2 wrote: post #535

jeffdavis wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A new rent control law changes the market. If the tenant leaves, they will need to sign a new lease, and the leasor will build in extra rent because they are worried they won't be able to raise it enough later. In other words, it scares all the landlords at once, and they all raise prices a little because of it.

It all depends if tenants can afford it. On a scale this could be "happy with rent"->"rent too high but can afford"->"cannot afford rent, in arrears". Are average renters getting 7% pay raises every year in perpetuity?

> It all depends if tenants can afford it

In extreme markets, perhaps.

Normally one landlord's ability to raise rents is constrained by the prices other landlords charge.

Re: California Approves Statewide Rent Control

#910

Post by rconti » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 5:08 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #314

justinhj wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why vacant property tax makes sense for popular areas

So solve a problem created by regulations with more regulations?

Rent control (regulation) creates more problem, I agree with that.

But I don't think it's fair to say that expensive housing, full stop, is a product of regulation.

There are desirably places to live that have housing that goes up at a good enough rate to be considered an investment. As long as there are people of sufficient means, some of them will add property to their portfolio of assets. A home that sits unused on prime real estate is, frankly, more of a drain on that community than $100,000 in cash sitting under a mattress going unused.

It's not perfect, and it IS a regulation, but penalizing people for hoovering up housing stock and then not using it, can benefit society.