Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

work.qz.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

901–910 of 1001 posts

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#901

Post by exodust »

maxk42 wrote: post #651
exodust wrote: post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you didn't say how long they gave you to do it. Could you hand in the assignment a week later? I've never been given a homework assignment for a job interview, but I would love it. I absolutely hate the tests they give you on the spot, the last one I did was awful and made me angry! I would much prefer an 8 hour homework assignment. That pressure would be fun, and I get to work with my tools in my comfort zone. I…

They wanted it done by Monday. Then I got to choose which day of my weekend I wanted to sacrifice: I chose none and I'll begin my new position at a company that respects my time Monday. To be clear: I've been given take-home "challenges" that take 2 - 3 hours each. Including at the company I wound up going with. I have no problem with these. If you expect me to sacrifice a full day of my time then you can pay me or f…

Okay, they wanted it by Monday, yeh that's rough.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#902

Post by Clubber »

monocasa wrote: post #875
Clubber wrote: post #847

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way I could see that scenario could ever occur is if the candidate outright lied on his resume. A quick solution is to check references (call the school said person graduated from, call references, call references via their company line, etc). Sounds like the interviewer didn't bother checking references.

The majority of shops that firmware devs come from (and particularly defense) have a policy of only verifying the dates of employment and nothing else.

References would be personal references - someone with a cell number and call the college he attended; they should also verify enrollment and completion. You don't want to be calling the HR department. Also, a secret is if the reference (not HR) only verifies employment, that's a negative review. They are concerned about liability. If it was a good employee, the references have no qualms about saying so; it's the negative aspects that carry legal liability. You need to ask for those, not just prior companies. My resume has a "References available upon request" at the bottom and I'd happily give them. Is that no longer practiced? It used to be a requirement.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#903

Post by kraigie »

the-pigeon wrote: post #565
magissima wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're only applying to one job and you get it, sure. But when you're looking for a new job and sending out dozens of resumes, it adds up pretty quickly! On top of that, it makes rejections all the more dispiriting when you spend hours or days working on one job application.

One that hit me hard was a homework assignment that I absolutely aced. It was timed and I was super proud of myself for not only getting all of it completed including the bonus questions with what I considered very good quality code. But I hadn't talked to anyone in the company prior to them giving me the homework. So they are impressed and move me on to the next stage, I talk with them and immediately find out that…

Or they could put that kind of thing in the job ad.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#904

Post by kraigie »

geebee wrote: post #453
newobj wrote: post #301

It's unreal that will people will bitch and moan about having to invest a couple days, maybe even a whole week in cramming/prepping/interviewing, to perform on-demand, one time, for a job that realistically will earn them $100k, $200k, $300k, $400k+ a year. Meanwhile people that work harder than us 5 days a week for the entire duration of their career will make 1/2, 1/4, 1/6th, or less of income, with none of the per…

That last line was a tad overdramatic. Happy to discuss this, though (and i assure without any downmodding!) I disagree with you in part. One issue is the amount of time required early in the process. A whole day of whiteboard exercisis plus prep time is a lot to ask wheon only, say, 4% of the people who go through it are offered a position. Keep in mind that unlike the bar exam or med boards, devs go through this ev…

They also never mention the salary level they can't pay people at which is odd. In a shortage that's the first thing you'd want to advertise (as it would encourage more people to enter the industry) it's almost like they can't find good developers for cheap.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#905

Post by monocasa »

Clubber wrote: post #902
monocasa wrote: post #875

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of shops that firmware devs come from (and particularly defense) have a policy of only verifying the dates of employment and nothing else.

References would be personal references - someone with a cell number and call the college he attended; they should also verify enrollment and completion. You don't want to be calling the HR department. Also, a secret is if the reference (not HR) only verifies employment, that's a negative review. They are concerned about liability. If it was a good employee, the references have no qualms about saying so; it's the neg…

It's corporate policy with most of the companies in the field for any of their employees to not confirm more. And it's enforced. It's a defense thing.

College buddies will tell more lies than the candidate will.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#906

Post by orbitur »

the-pigeon wrote: post #555
psyc wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no shame in it. Same thing happened to me last week, and I was furious about it. I've resolved not to take any more live coding interviews, on the grounds it is uninformative, degrading hazing. We're composers, but we're being tested as if we're live concert pianists. Then companies complain that there's a talent shortage! This hurts everybody, and it needs to stop. For my part, I will refuse to participate a…

> I've resolved not to take any more live coding interviews, on the grounds it is uninformative, degrading hazing. Depends on the job. I'm currently hiring and the live coding exercise is a must for the position because I want to see how the person problem solves while under stress. Because stuff happens. My team works on mission critical systems that can have issues that we sometimes must resolve quickly which is ve…

People have already hammered you for this, but a Merciless Judge actively looking over shoulder while you're working is a completely different kind of stress than trying to get a fix out the door ASAP.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#907

Post by edcarter »

monocasa wrote: post #828
WorldMaker wrote: post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of options. Programmers only just have to pick one, or create a new one for all that it matters. For instance, NCEES that runs the Professional Engineering accreditation that every other Engineering discipline utilizes, has a Software Engineering PE. Tomorrow we could grandfather in every Senior Dev with 5+ years experience as a PE and then start requiring it, and encouraging kids to train for it and…

Have you seen the Software PE? In contrast to the other PE exams, it manages to cover everything except actual programming. https://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/ncees_PESoftware_2013....

That is because it is an actual __Engineering__ exam, not a programming one. Testing for programming skills in an SE exam is like testing a mechanical engineer's CAD skills. I would argue that the majority of "SE" jobs do not actually entail engineering but software development (or construction), which is only a small subset of SE.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#908

Post by sb8244 »

For me, I think that unpaid homework is an acceptable, if not important, part of an interview. However, it must pass some qualifications:

* It can't be taken as real work at all. Something like building a game is clearly not "real" for a SaaS company and still conveys lots of value

* It should be discussed in person as the in-person technical interview (don't come in an whiteboard in addition to the outside work)

* It is provided only after a phone screen and it is discussed on the screen.

* There are clear objectives and "bonuses"

* The language of choice can be used

With this, I think that it provides value to the interview process and helps the interviewee as well by simplifying the in-person technical components of the interview.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#909

Post by JPKab »

reaperducer wrote: post #255
speby wrote: post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

> Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. Agreed. The solution is to not work at a tech company, but instead work in a tech capacity at a real company. - No silly games (before or after hiring). - Better benefits (I'd rather have proper health coverage and a pension than a room full of toys and vaporware stock options). - Immensely more job security (Henry Ford didn't have an "exit strategy"). - Peo…

I've done both.

It depends on the company. MOST non tech companies imho treat all tech workers like IT, with the exception of embedded data/analytics people IF the company is even forward thinking enough to have that.

You compared the best examples of corporate with the worst examples of tech.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#910

Post by FireBeyond »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #532
monocasa wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're turning down someone who wrote space shuttle firmware, because they "can't do fizzbuzz", then you are administering a terrible test and getting a false negative. Or... large companies, particularly defense, excel at hiding mediocrity in their ranks, and it's easy for someone who produces no or negative work to be handed around rather than fired.

Small companies also excel at hiding mediocrity. What's the success rate for startups? The reality here is that everyone is supposing their particular bias explains what happened. No one seems to have asked what actually went wrong in the interview. Was the interviewee truly incompetent? Were they nervous? Were they fine at code but terrible at interviews? Was the language or environment unfamiliar? Had they just got…

> Small companies also excel at hiding mediocrity.

> What's the success rate for startups?

While there are certainly mediocre coders in many many startups, let's put the blame for most startup failures firmly where it lies:

"It was a turd of an idea and no-one told the founder/the founder didn't believe it."

not

"It was an amazing revolutionary concept that was only sabotaged by dimwits who couldn't fizzbuzz."

Post reply on HN