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Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

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Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#901

Post by dkrich »

I actually think that there is a real problem forming in society where certain views and ideas are sacred cows and any mention of an idea that runs counter to those ideas in any way results in the person being personally attacked and shamed. This doesn't raise the level of discourse or make people more sensitive or agreeing with the sacred cows, it just makes them hold their views in private and then express them when they vote and don't have to explain themselves.

I also believe that Google has every right to fire this employee based on the memo. A company is a place you work. They pay you a salary in exchange for your time. It is not a democracy. You don't pay taxes to them for fair representation. You have no expectation of free speech when it comes to work. Clearly Google is trying to build an environment with certain values. If somebody is working there who is promoting an opposing set of values, it makes complete sense that they would remove that person. The person then has the freedom to go work for a company that they feel is promoting their values if they feel that that is something that is important for the company they work for to do.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#902

Post by SmirkingRevenge »

StargazyPi wrote: post #821
LouisSayers wrote: post #226

Where is Google's rebuttal of this memo? All anyone is saying is "it's wrong" etc, but where is an ACTUAL breakdown of what was incorrect about what he wrote? I feel like most "rebuttal's" are like listening to Donald Trump. "He's wrong and we're right. We're definitely right.". If you do have a link, please share!

This is a really good one, in my view: https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man... . I agree - the discussion around this topic is very frustrating (more frustrating to me than the actual content of the manifesto by far), and everyone's trying to make it so black and white. I think the current top comment has it right; it makes good points (there are statistical differences in traits across gender…

I found that rebuttal less that satisfying, to say the least, given his #1 bullet point:

"1.I’m not going to spend any length of time on (1); if anyone wishes to provide details as to how nearly every statement about gender in that entire document is actively incorrect,¹ and flies directly in the face of all research done in the field for decades, they should go for it. But I am neither a biologist, a psychologist, nor a sociologist, so I’ll leave that to someone else."

But... that's exactly what I keep hoping to find, and have yet to really see - and its the thing people, in all their breathless responses, seem to excuse themselves first from undertaking.

The rest of his reply are really expositions about his own value judgements on empathy and politics.

I would find it highly educational and valuable, if someone who is more learned on these matters than I, would offer a good blow-by-blow factual rebuttal to the "manifesto".

More empiricism and less moralizing would be a breath of fresh air.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#903

Post by ImSkeptical »

jfasi wrote: post #896

One thing that bothers me as someone who works at Google (but is speaking purely his own opinion) is that this manifesto implies some pretty wrong things about our hiring process. In particular, it conflates diversity sourcing programs with a lower hiring bar. As an engineer who's done a fair bit of volunteer recruiting work as well as conducted interviews, my experience has been that race- and gender-specific progra…

>After years and years of working at the company I haven't heard even a whisper of complaint among anyone about the quality of people we're hiring

That point is less persuasive after Google has demonstrated it will terminate people who complain - even if they do so in a reasoned manner.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#904

Post by Allower »

Kluny wrote: post #569
eagsalazar2 wrote: post #555

Google really blew it. Just look at this conversation, normally happy and polite HN is barely restraining itself only because of fear of being hell banned and this is a tiny watered down version of the outrage they have unleashed nation wide. Had they just (as they should ethically have done) privately let the guy know "hey uh, independent of whether we agree with you, can you please cool it because this is USA, Bay…

> The worst anyone can say about his "screed" (give me a break) is that the guy was wrong and suffers from unconscious biases. Otherwise he was fairly civil and for this he is publicly and viciously crucified and demonized then thrown under a bus by Google. 100% agree. So much of the commentary on it reads like the writer either didn't read the memo or willfully misunderstood it. I don't agree with the memo either, b…

An unconscious bias toward rational thought, how outrageous

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#905

Post by sickbeard »

gerash wrote: post #465

I don't think this guy should've been terminated. He wrote an inflammatory memo asserting that biological differences between men and women is a major factor in their performance at tech jobs. I don't believe the crux of his argument is scientific. He didn't provide much evidence but he did raise some valid points throughout his memo. He just made a bunch of wrong assertions. The appropriate response should've been a…

Every company has values, and if you shift on them, you'll get shown the door pretty fast. That's what happened here

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#906

Post by reubeniv »

I grew up relatively poor; single disabled, unemployed parent. We couldn't afford a computer, because computers are (or were until very recently) expensive things. Programming too was, until very recently, not taught outside of university.

I had no help, I entered university a bit later than most as a mature student, so wasn't pushed towards it at a young age by any means, which is fairly typical for my social class, and yet affirmative action/positive discrimination affects me negatively, simply for being male.

I don't see how that's fair at all.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#908

Post by aqsalose »

mr_spothawk wrote: post #554
HD134606c wrote: post #206

We haven't seen anything yet. What we're witnessing is the transition from capitalism to Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, and things like this termination are an obvious milestone. That may sound like a bold claim but let me explain. Allow me to back up a little bit. First off some context: a lot of people don't realize it but we are a lot closer to a post-scarcity world than the world would have you think. Check out…

side note: I recommend that anybody who's headed for Burning Man read Brave New World before you go. poly + molly + endless disposable entertainment ... it's hard to come to grips with, and incredibly scary.

Oh, that isn't scary yet.

My most troubling experience regarding Brave New World concerns a short community review of Brave New World on GoodReads I read not long time ago. (The only review in Finnish.) It consistently kept calling it "utopia" and discussed only things like how the savages lived in terrible conditions and the characters and "Shakespeare quotes" were "annoying". Not a word about how book is meant to be a dystopia, or if skipping the fancy words, about a society that is a pretty bad place to live. And I was left wondering if the writer of that review just did not know about the word "dystopia", or simply could not spot anything troubling with the picture Huxley painted.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#910

Post by 52-6F-62 »

ImSkeptical wrote: post #903
jfasi wrote: post #896

One thing that bothers me as someone who works at Google (but is speaking purely his own opinion) is that this manifesto implies some pretty wrong things about our hiring process. In particular, it conflates diversity sourcing programs with a lower hiring bar. As an engineer who's done a fair bit of volunteer recruiting work as well as conducted interviews, my experience has been that race- and gender-specific progra…

>After years and years of working at the company I haven't heard even a whisper of complaint among anyone about the quality of people we're hiring That point is less persuasive after Google has demonstrated it will terminate people who complain - even if they do so in a reasoned manner.

That's a major crux, though. You're implying that what this fellow did was provide a reasoned complaint, but if I were to distribute manifestos at my workplace, unsolicited and unofficially, I'd be disciplined or terminated regardless of what was written in it.

To add to that, it wasn't a constructive argument with a new solution -- the only proposition was regressive action. I'd posit that it's akin to someone arguing that since civil rights were not smoothly implemented, we may as well roll back the clock because some members of society had it easier that way. It's pretty weak, and certainly not what I'd call a well-reasoned manner.

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